a choice to ponder nagamitsu or star stamped blade

[zentsuji2]

i have been offered a choice of 2 nagamitsus, one in full polish one in original polish.or a third ,it has the tamahagane star in mounts but needs polish.i have not seen them yet but would like to ask if the star stamp means it is a better blade than one of my favourite ww2 smiths in my budjet.i have no pictures to post yet but would be grateful for things to look out for to determine a well made blade.any thoughts would help as they are being brought to my house to look over.i haven,t owned a gendaito for 3 years now and am rusty at best. :bowdown:ibell

[David Flynn]

Each sword must be appraised on its own merit.

[almeister]

As Dave just said , "Every sword is its' own sword , it pends on its' condition/originality etc ... Unless you've missed the recent posts regarding "Star Stamped Swords " - it would be advisable (if possible ) to post pictures of blades/nakagos/mei to get some input prior to purchase !

All The Best !

AlanK

[george trotter]

Always go on the blade in hand.

Having a star would automatically draw my attention...I would give it a good examination.

It is said that Ichihara Nagamitsu was an army swordsmith also, working in Osaka arsenal. His work is quite good with interesting hamon. All those I have handled had a good tight hada. I have also seen a couple of "uninteresting hamon" examples.

I have seen his swords unmarked and also with a contract number on the nakago-mune, together with a tiny "saka" stamp for "Osaka", but I don't remember seeing one with a star.

I have owned his work signed Bizen Nagamitsu (no stamps) and the quality was good and I have heard from other owners that his work is good.

If the swords you view all come down to comparable quality...then I suppose I would recommend you pick the best condition...although myself, I would always pick the one I like best.

I would like to know the mei on the star stamped sword.

Hope this helps,

[mdiddy]

One thing I would recommend is to spend more time with the blade in polish. Most of the Nagamitsu I have had in the past that were in a good state of polish showed nice hada, sometimes with lots of chikei.

 

Also, the mei can give you some indication of when the blade was made. I find his earlier mei to be more crude and signed Nagamitsu or Ichihara Nagamitsu. His later blades sometimes have extended Zoku-mei. In my experience, his earlier work is a little more basic - Bizen suguha. His later work is a little more flamboyant. Zoku-mei swords are probably a pretty good bet imho.

 

Finally, I agree with George, can you share pictures of the mei with star stamp? I have not seen one before on a Nagamitsu.

[zentsuji2]

Thanks for all your input.i will let you all know who made the star stamped piece. I wish i had joined this forum some months ago.i am in safe hands as this dealer is sound and knowleagable.ianb

[chrisf]

Is this in UK?

[Rich S]

IMHO, choose condition over stamps. Polishing is VERY expensive, esp for WW II era swords. You could very well end up spending more on polishing than the sword is worth.

 

Rich S

[David Flynn]

This is a good point, made by Rich. However, I would prefer a good sword unpolished than a mediocre sword, that is polished. Again, make sure you see them all and choose the one you really like.

[zentsuji2]

I chose a nagamitsu in fair original polish lovely hamon thick blade at habaki signed 3character mei and a nice hada peeking through.it is in need of a polish but shiny enough to enjoy.it was straight out of an attic all matching parts tight fit scabbard 70%good other patchy rust.the star stamp needs a lot of work and has an edge chip which when polished would only leave a small yakiba.it has no polish and needs alot of work but i like it.it feels nice and the mei is nice and deep .as on others it has straight across file dressing and i can only find masataka aka morimitsu.how bad can a yakiba be before it cannot be polished without being worthless.i might take it on as a project.ian b

[Bruno]

Does anybody knows the reason why Nagamitsu's nakago are almost never dated?

[george trotter]

I think I misunderstood your original post...I thought the choice was 2 Nagamitsu blades and one other sword with a star (I didn't realise you were saying it was 2 Nagamitsu blades , one of which had a star.

If I had known this I would have emphasised even stronger to go for best condition...hope the chip is not too bad.

 

Now that you have chosen a Nagamitsu with a star (first time I have heard of one) can I ask again about Bruno's question...is it dated?

Also, can I ask, is there a small "saka" stamp and/or numbers on the nakago mune (back ridge of the tang)?

Thanks,

[Lance]

I think your original interpretation was correct, there were 3 swords in all, he bought the Nagamitsu that was in original polish and mounts over the polished Nagamitsu.

The third sword offered wasn't by Nagamitsu and had a star stamp, rougher shape with some chips to the edge.

 

Regards,

Lance

[george trotter]

Thanks Lance,

I'm not going ga-ga then! In his later post I interpreted him to mean the Nagamitsu had a star...I re-read it and you are correct...he is saying the star blade is a different blade in need of care...whew!

 

In answer to Bruno's question, Nagamitsu seems rarely to have put a date on his swords...there is one example in Slough p.125.

 

I also would be interested to know who made the star stamped blade.

[zentsuji2]

Sorry for confusion george .in answer to star stamped blade it is masataka but is in poor condition mounts and blade.tere is a 3mm deep chip in hamon about 10mm long it doesnt break the hamon but the yakiba will suffer.on the day of choosing i had 8swords to look at and got overwhelmed by info markings etc.i will remove the habaki to check for stamp on nagamitsu.the mei is 3characterr and 3 dashes on the naga symbol.thanks for your input i have an autistic daughter of 5 anddont have lots of time to think sometimes so all of the peoples help and opinions will be appreciazed a big thanks.ianb

[george trotter]

Thanks ibell?

Your Nagamitsu sounds right with the mei strokes etc., and good that you picked a blade in good condition.

i doubt you'll find a star as I've never seen one on his work (always a first time), and if it is undated, it contravenes the RJ T regulations.

Let us know OK.

Regards to you and your little girl...

Edit to add: I just heard from a member who has seen a star stamped Nagamitsu.

[Bruno]

Nagamitsu was RJT but his star stamped blades are very rare then? Strange. Anybody knows for how long he has been RJT?

[george trotter]

Hi Bruno,

yes, rare, I have never seen the star after handling about 5 Nagamitsu blades and seeing pics of maybe 6-8 more.

A friend just told me that he has seen one in the past.

I checked the records I have and I can only find a record that he was RJT in Tosho Zenshu, so maybe Shimizu got this from Nihonto Meikan (can someone check this as it must have come from the Rikugun Jumei Tosho Meibo).

As for how long he was RJT...well the scheme only lasted in proper operation from 1942-1945. There was a period Sho 15-17 when the scheme was on trial...as Ohmura san writes, a few smiths working at the various arsenals at until the scheme was ready to start. Ohmura names them as

Tokyo Hohei Kosho - Yokoyama Sukekane, Morioka Masayoshi

Tokyo # 1 Workshop: Yoshihara Nobushiro, (Akihiro, Kuniiye same man)

Osaka Kosho: Gassan Sadakatsu, Sadakazu (2dai),Sadashige, Masakiyo

Kokura Kosho: Hakuryushi Tadataka,Taira Sadashige, Kanenobu

Kyuheikisho (refurbishment workshop): Yoshihara etc.

I think some of these may have stayed on after the scheme began properly.

 

Regards,

[cabowen]

The RJT scheme lasted only 2-3 years. Not all smiths joined it on inception, so it is not certain how long Ishihara Nagamitsu was participating.

 

He is listed in the Meikan as having a blade dated Showa 19 but it does not list him as a RJT, meaning he was not listed in the Meibo of Showa 17. He is listed as submitting a blade to the Army's sword contest in Showa 19. He may have only been a RJT for a year or so, meaning he probably didn't make many blades for the program.

[Bruno]

So we can assume that adding a date on the nakago was a requirement of the RJT program only, and that Nagamitsu did not put date on his nakago (at least very few) fo pesonnal taste when he was out of the RJT program ?

[cabowen]

So we can assume that adding a date on the nakago was a requirement of the RJT program only, and that Nagamitsu did not put date on his nakago (at least very few) fo pesonnal taste when he was out of the RJT program ?

 

 

Adding a date was required of the RJT smiths, for others, it was always optional. It takes more time to cut a date. This is one sign to look for in a quality showa period blade as it is rare to find a top quality blade without a date

[zentsuji2]

Are rjt blades all tameghane like the star stamped blades and the best quality gendaito on the ww2 sword stage.ianb

[Brian]

RJT = Rikgun Jumei Tosho = Star Stamp.

The star stamp is the mark used to indicate it is a RJT blade. Not all RJT blades rate among the top Gendaito...they have to be examined individually like all swords.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Are rjt blades all tameghane like the star stamped blades and the best quality gendaito on the ww2 sword stage.ianb

 

All RJT blades that were submitted to the army and passed inspection have a star stamp. All RJT were supplied with tamahagane and required to make blades for the army with the tamahagane according to rigid specifications.

 

RJT blades with star stamp are not the best quality gendaito on the WWII stage. They are, as a group, rather uniformly good, with some that maybe better than good. The best WWII era gendaito are not, as a group, the RJT blades.

[David Flynn]

There was a Star Stamped Kanehide for sale a few years ago. Only going by photos, it had one of the nicest Bizen style hamon I've seen an a wartime made blade. It was sold through a dealer, who was asking $2850 US. It didn't sell for this price, so the vendor asked for offers. I offered $2100 US and missed out. I wasn't prepared to go higher, because it had a Star Stamp. If only I knew then what I know now

[george trotter]

Hi Dave,

Yes I know what you mean...I have missed out on a Kanehide star stamped blade with very nice, wide Bizen choji with long ashi...maybe the same one? I now have one in gonome with occasional togari Seki hamon...very nice blade too.

 

I agree with Chris about the overall quality assessment of RJT blades. During the recent thread on RJT blades/"art" swords/military weapons/quality etc...I also said that while RJT swords were traditionally made gendaito of WWII I did not imply they were the artistic equal or superior to previous eras. They should be seen as belonging to a specific era and history and while they are kantei'd the same way for quality, they are part of a unique system of quality/dimensional conformity unheard of before in Japanese nihonto history. This system produced swords from all across the nation that were absolutely adapted to the battlefield needs of the time. They were a consistantly good/excellent sword; tested and inspected and with rigid materials quality control (something that can't be said of 99% of previous era swords).... As a group they are very good and some are outstanding...but probably the Yasukunito and a few individuals would consistantly surpass them as being a consistantly higher artistic? group of individuals all the time?....I have seen a few "ordinary" RJT blades and a few outstanding blades...but overall they ARE all good. As in all things again...examine each blade....consider the star as a sign of likely superior WWII quality and a signal to have a good look at the blade.

Regards,

[zentsuji2]

I didnt see a date on the starmarked sword and did i read this was a requirement of rjt smiths.are there exceptions.i just like the sound of tameghane and the sword being worked in the old way.i am still in awe as i have worked with steel and made knives.to see swords marked by there 85 year old makers astounds meianb

[george trotter]

Hi Ian,

this is confusing,...all RJT made swords should have a date...

I just re-read Ohmura's site Arsenal Blades for Officers - "Hontanrento" (true forged blades).

If I am understanding right, these include 3 systems- (this might answer your question)

 

1. (this gives names of smiths who were commissioned to work within arsenals)...it says "the nakago was marked with the swordsmith's mei and the arsenal logo/mark", i.e mei with "saka' "ko" mark etc. we have seen these with Nagamitsu. Having the "saka", "ko" mark etc but no star is a bit different from the RJ scheme, but these are army commissioned gendaito.

 

2. (see attached scan) the sentence says "Private swordsmiths and also Sword Companies were commissioned to forge swords (nakago marked with mei and simple Army star inspection mark)"... nakago has mei and star but no date mentioned. These also are different from the RJT scheme we have been talking about but are also army commissioned gendaito...maybe the Nagamitsu is one of these? Maybe this is why he has been seen with a star (but no date?), he is an army smith but not in the official RJT scheme and thus not in the RJT meibo?

 

3. This says "Army specification Gendai forged swords (nakago marked with mei, date, star)...these are the "true" RJT scheme swords we published the Regulations about. These can have the tiny "seki", "na" shinsa stamps also.

 

So, it looks like there may be a few star stamp gendai swords without dates. They are not from the official RJ scheme smiths...but passed the army quality tests ander the other system.

 

I have added the scan for sentence (2.) in case my translation is wrong.

Regards,

[zentsuji2]

Blade has mei and date september 1942,smith is hizen motomura kanemoto,army gold medal winner and made swords for the reopened isa shrine.He was a student of the muto school and is of kunimitsu, tadayoshi lineage.All this info from this sites fine members.Thank you.ianb.