george trotter

Can't help much Bruce...I also think the month is GO (5). First I've seen of this star stamped arsenal signed tang. Sorry, G.

Ah well, in this case at least I have his name (Kume) rank (2nd Lt.) unit ("Kaede Div". (32nd Div. of the 2nd Army, Southern Area, consisting of the 210, 211, 212 Inf. Regt and support units) under Lt. Gen. Teshima. place/date of surrender (Morotai Is. 9/9/1945 to Gen Blamey Australian I Corps). So, just in case someone is walking past the Diet Library in Tokyo...? Kaede Div is the 'Maple' Div...as it says here (Yellow (Autumn) Leaves).

Yes indeed Thomas If we have the mon - which family name goes with it? If we have the name - which mon goes with it?

Wow! Steve...I'm amazed. This will take a while to sort through and at the end, there will now be so many mon that I will still not know which one was on my sword. But that's life - nihonto style! Thanks,

Dear all, May I ask a question on (I think) a "no-mon" family . I have a sword inscribed on the blade (in English) to 2nd Lt KUME. It HAD a mon, but was picked off before surrender. I presume his name is written using the two kanji I show here. Well, I have never found a "picture" mon for this name Kume....is it most likely that he would have just used the 2 kanji in a circle/oval on the sword? So just asking the mon experienced here...is there a 'picture mon for KUME....I have never found one. Regards.

Thanks all for the comments....much appreciated. If I have understood the replies: The star stamp only appears on RJT blades - this is as we RJT collectors knew. No example of a showa era Kaneyoshi blade is known. I am prepared to stick my neck out here (not having Matt's sword in hand) and say that this blade does not seem showa era to me. I FEEL this blade is an old shinto/shinshinto blade - possibly the 1780-1804 late Shinto - early Shinshinto Kaneyoshi smith listed by Stephen. I think it is the first non-WWII blade I have seen in RS mounts. I say this as: (1) the blade is virtually straight. (2) the tang is short and stubby, with 1 hole (3) the tang is undated (4) while the tang edges - yasuri, mei and mekugi ana are fairly 'crisp' I do not think WWII era crisp...more 1780s era crisp (IMHO). IMHO this is just not the sort of gendaito or showato blade usually seen in RS mounts...have a look at the pics...I'd like to hear members' opinions - maybe some more examples? and if I am wrong I would like to know. Regards to all...

Hi Bazza, I'm sure you are right...I can remember Japan in the 1980s and visiting Japanese 'experts' visiting over here over the years getting things "wrong". about good WWII gendaito..simply because they had no idea about the quality swords of the WWII period. In fact, the WWII corner was something most of them would not wander in to. Geo.

Very interesting Thomas. I have the book on RJT of Aizu and a sword by one of the Fukushima RJT smiths mentioned in it (Tsukamoto Masakazu - no star - 17/4 Apr. 1942) as being from a farm tool making family. He did study under his brother Tsukamoto Okimasa and Kasama Shigetsugu. Thomas I am sure many RJT smiths started out on their sword careers as farm tool guys etc, but I don't think the RJT scheme actually trained them...they were already smiths...they had to apply to join with examples of their work before being accepted or rejected. Those that passed became RJT. My guy Masakazu began his training around 1934-37 and by 1941 was back in Fukushima and was made RJT while there in mid-1942? I am sure many "strange" things happened in the official sword making system...."different" names, sell "on the side", etc, etc. but such things were "against the RJT rules". Reading through Nick's post, all 3 books substantially confirm that the RJT blade made "in the system" using "army tamahagane" will pass inspection and be given the star stamp. This star is (it seems) tamahagane confirmation/RJT made confirmation/ RJT quality control confirmation...so a "good thing" and yes...also army materiel confirmation. Yes, the star stamp is seen on many things, guns, spades etc, etc, but (to the best of my knowledge) only on RJT 'passed inspection' swords. Maybe an NCO sword owner can tell us if these also have army materiel star stamps on them? All the private sword making companies had their own inspection/makers stamp . Anyway, while it is possible that one of these dodgy makers made a copy of a shintoKaneyoshi blade...I'd be interested to know your opinion of Matt's blade's period? Regards,

Interesting Baz, Wish Matt (if you are reading this) would get in touch with an Aussie collector and get your sword looked at. Regards,

I think I once had a paperback reprint of this book "Heian Monkan" and it was very good, but no, it does not give the name linkages to each mon (if the same as the book I had). Regards,

NCO swords are not my thing, but I remember seeing 2 way back in the early/mid 1980s and both, owned by different returned soldiers, had gold painted scabbards - can't remember now if they had brass or flat steel tsuba. I just though these guys had painted them to hang them over the fireplace, but based on this info above it looks like they both may have come back from the SW Pacific already painted. Makes one think....might be a reason for it. Hope this helps....

I agree! A very clear and helpful progress through 5 basic needs the Nihonto collector must face. Thank You Ray.

Yes Thomas, all clear now.. So, love to hear from members on their koto blades in RS mounts...... Regards, Edit to add some thing I didn't mention about that page 196. This is that reading left after the two 'circle' (indicates Koto) Kaneyoshi koto 1400s smiths is a third Kaneyoshi smith with these kanji. This third is the 'triangle' (indicates Shinto) Kaneyoshi shinto mid-1700s smith - the third Kaneyoshi of these kanji. Stephen posted them above in English, this is just to clarify that they are the same info, just in different books.

Thomas, here is page 196...there are two examples of that Kaneyoshi mei listed...the circle indicator says they are both koto smiths, mid 1400s both Seki/Mino....the info is included in the page you quote from but the quote seems a bit mixed up? This page copy should help clear this smith period thing up. Ian...I felt the blade was not gendaito, that is why I "pushed" this issue...but I am always prepared to be corrected. Maybe the owner Matt can provide more pics? and maybe contact a fellow Aussie collector (or vice versa) and have it looked at? Regards,

Great stuff Bruce. I sure would like Matt to provide clearer blade OA and other photos as, like you say, I too think this is the first old family blade seen in RS mounts. Be good to hear from members also...have I/we got this wrong?...any more out there? Regards,

A week has passed since this was posted, so I have to ask....what happened to this thread? Not another peep out of anyone. I thought this would be an interesting topic...the FIRST? pre-gendaito/showato blade seen in RS mounts (look how straight it is!). I thought this would get members digging through their collections to show us other examples of undated, one hole, pre-WWII blades. I know this is the first one I have seen in RS...but I could be wrong...I thought this would be something we would discuss? Regards

Don't say HADORI...that's a filthy word, like CREVICE, just disgusting!

That kanji below the mekugi ana looks like 'SA'. can't make out the others.

Thank you John, and I wish the same to you and yours...and to all fellow NMB members around the world. Happy 2022, George.

Yes Stephen, those are the only ones with these two kanji I could find...probaby the last one? I think Matt needs to carefully photograph a gently cleaned blade (give us measurements too) so that maybe some of our "non-WWII gendai addicted" members can give us an opinion on whether this is an older Mino blade re-used for WWII. When you think about it....we see many old blades in Type 98 mounts, so why not a few in RS? BTW this is the first time I have seen a Matsu (if it is Matsu) by itself with no 'tally" number stamped in - but it does have 'tally number' 18 in red paint...so sort of "fits the rules"? So, Matt, I see you are in Australia...wonder if you can check and try to meet up with an NMB member nearby? to get a proper assessment of this blade. (I am in WA). Bruce, as you might remember...I have two blades by Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata. Both have a tang number but only the later one has the Matsu stamp. 16/9 308 18/5 matsu 1080 This Matsu by itself (unless '18' in red paint is the tally number of that shop at that time - later stamped numbers?) will take a dedicated detective like you to see if any more are known. Regards,

Hi Bruce, thanks for putting this together. I does look to me that this is a Matsu stamp....a mountings shop ID stamp? from that area. I think, from the photos supplied by Matt that this blade has: 1. no star stamp 2. no date 3. one hole 4. is in RS mounts. I think this info and the photos themselves seem to show this is not a war-time made blade, but a pretty straight bladed, short tanged, probably Mino Province shinshinto blade with some age on the tang that has been mounted in RS mounts in WWII. The mounting shop did this private order job and put their shop stamp on the tang. The blade shape etc, and tang file marks, shape and nakago jiri looks to me to likely be one of the Mino Kaneyoshi smiths, possibly of 1781 see Hawley Revised 1981 KAN 3093 p.244. None of my books have an oshi of these smiths or I would post it. (If I am correct) this is probably the first non-gendaito/showato blade we have seen in these mounts. I always thought it likely that one would show up one day....this is it? I'd be interested in members thoughts....don't be shy, if I am wrong, just say so... Regards,

OK, thanks guys, Kaneyoshi...good. Be interested in the date, star, stamps etc. Regards,

Hi Matt, welcome to the NMB. Your sword looks to be of good, handmade, WWII quality. Bit hard to read the signature (may be Kaneyoshi as Ray said - he's got better eyes than me) Maybe take a clearer pic of the signature? (is there a star stamped just above the signature?) Also take a pic of the date on the other side (if there is one?). Is there a number stamped near the 'circle' stamp? These circle stamps usually have the character 'matsu' (pine) in the centre - probably put there by the mounting shop. Looks interesting, Regards, George (I'm in WA).

Thanks Eric, Very interesting, so Rinji mounts can have very long blades (my Masakazu of the earlier period is Sho 17/4) - your Nagamitsu (date?) is 27 3/8 in 69.4 cm (mine is 27 3/8 in 69.5 cm) so just about the same (my extreme point is slightly chipped off so was probably 69.6 or 7). Wonder if anything of 70 cm or longer will show up? Regards,

I have been to Numa Numa. It is a coconut plantation on the coast of Bougainville Island in the Solomons just outside the town/harbour of Wakunai. It was back in 1975...I rode a motorbike up the coast from Arawa. There was some hard fighting there in 1944/45. I remember some bomb craters between the rows of trees and and a wrecked Australian tank on the side of the road....but I don't remember seeing those guys, or those swords...sorry. Those were the days,