george trotter

Ummm...sorry, can't leave it alone. Checking dictionaries etc and hamon pics I think I will abandon the word "kaeri-yoru" and go back to the the word "kaeri-katai or katashi". Ko-maru Kaeri-katai essentially means "a small tight circle with short return" (check pic & drawing on my Saturday post above). If any of our native Japanese speakers would like to agree/disagree/correct etc...they would be welcome. Regards,

Thank you guys....interesting comments. First Will...yes I think George Boshi is OK, after all there was a guy down your way who collected Bushes, and they made him President of the USA...ha ha. And Dan...I understand what you ask, but even without a 'window' I can see enough of it to assess it (as I have)...only the 'varying' vocab of 'correct terms' is the hangup. And Jean, yes, it would be great if it was in clean WWII polish, but sadly, it is dirty (sigh). And yes, definitely a patch of muneyaki there behind the end of the kaeri. The very active blade has tobiyaki and hitatsura, also. So guys, good stuff, I appreciate your comments. Regards, P.S. On re-polish. I think maybe one influence on my 'attitude' to re-polish is that post-war hadori is sooo 'out of place' with the characteristics of WWII polish. I think my distaste for 'out of place' polish etc is partly due to the fact I collect WWII RJT gunto - to me they are high class weapons of war (the last sword actually made for war), so they, and their polish is history (You can see I was 30 years at local State Museum here) so I prefer a 90% perfect WWII polish over a 100% perfect hadori...To me, hadori is like putting a solar panel on a 70 year old Sherman tank. Hope this all makes sense (I'm not crazy). I collect the beauty/quality of WWII era gendaito, and that includes keeping it in original polish if possible...if in dire need of a repolish, I would stick with sashikomi. (note: this is not to say other views on hadori are wrong, just what I think...I can certainly tolerate different views ...as my mother would say "I'm sooo tolerant, I ache". One last PS...feel free to say what you think the little 'kinked/crooked circle' feature in the ko-maru is called (several of my books show it, but do not name it). Regards,

Thanks Brian, Yes, I think you are right. You and Piers have both pointed towards remembering that Japanese texts often differ from each other. I think it is pretty obvious that the membership also is reluctant to make any BOLD statement on it as any firm declaration is almost certain to be contradicted in existing or future publications....wise choice. Probably wise for me to be wise too. I think then, after more searching and thinking, I will keep it simple and class my boshi as: Ko-Maru with short, sturdy Kaeri-yoru. I think that covers it.... Thanks, I'll let it rest now...

Just a bump...any description?

OK, one last try...as Piers says above, the Japanese use a number of 'sort of' words when describing features, so I though I'd ask the NMB 'straight shooters' their assessments. Here is a drawing of what is essentially the exact same boshi as on my sword above (my kaeri is maybe a tad shorter). This was in Hawley 'Japanese Swordsmiths' 1967 vol. 2 p,682 (blue books). Unfortunately it is a on a drawing of a sword blade kikusui hamon so this boshi is not described in any way....soooo, can I ask those here who have knowledge, how they would describe this sword in Japanese boshi terms? (with English translation?). Thanks.

Thanks Piers, yes, an interesting little journey...a bit unusual for me to 'open it up' for NMB discussion, but I thought it would be of interest to members and I was interested to hear members' opinions. And yes, regarding the Japanese text avoidance of absolute statements, I did this little exercise with that in mind... I think I am happy at last with this classification 'ko-maru kaeri-yoru' as it is factual, but still leaves room for discussion of 'ko' and/or 'togari' and Mishina, midare etc..on other boshi compared with this one. So fun for me (sorry to bore other members)...and yes, I know some must be thinking the blade deserves a polish, but you know my paranoia about modern polish. Oh and speaking of modern polish, I have seen references to boshi with togari-gokoro but the kesho polish makesit hard to see. The several I saw were all different, but all termed as 'becoming togari-gokoro...maybe a pic/drawing or 2 Piers? (just to help us learn). Thanks again to all who commented.

Hmmm....not much happening here, so may I annoy you one more time? I think this might be the answer I'm looking for. Here is a boshi from Iimura's 'TOKEN YORAN. 1980 p.347. The description just says Kaeri Katashi (return tight)? Can this be called ko-maru kaeri katashi (small circle with tight return ? (blunt/short return?). Any comments? Thanks Okay - several hours have passed - I think I have it (slow I know - duuh!). Anyway, simplest classification is from Nakahara 'Japanese Swords' p.160 fig 238 Ko-Maru, Kaeri-Yoru = small circle, kaeri ends abruptly (rather squarely) see new sketch. This fits Mishina and others discussed. I think I'll stick with this...I'll leave now.

Not really trying to bucket it into a tradition, as there are as you say, considerable numbers of 'varieties' in gendai blades, especially from those under pressure to make a minimum of 10 blades/month in the RJT scheme. All I really wanted was feedback on the closest term to use to describe this boshi. I also think Jizo, but maybe Mishina version of Jizo boshi, but would like to hear opinions.

Thanks Brian, I am leaning much loser to classing it as a Mishina version of a Jizo-boshi....which is what a Mishina boshi is - just the Mishina school version of a Jizo. Although my guy is a Bizen oriented smith, there is no reason why he would always stick to the Bizen boshi - mostly versions of the sansaku boshi (your chart top row 4 from left). So, thanks again. Always happy to hear more opinion folks...

Thanks John...just to clarify, if I have got you right, you have classified this picture?...the photo above is not really notare....closer to this drawing of a non-notare togari example. In fact, mine is really this one but with the shorter, abruptly ending kaeri (except that mine is not this togari (pointed), but closer to a small headed Jizo)...see my problem?

I have had another look through the books and as you say Jimmy it looks like a Mishina version of a Jizo-boshi. I had considered this before and am happy to return to it now....but before I make a final decision, maybe the members could offer a comment or two? Regards,

Pippo, Bruce's latest photo just above has a lot of similarities in handwriting style to your example. There are some differences, but may be same man? Ask him what his source for the photo is and whether they say what generation Nobuyoshi he is...might be a trail to follow? Good luck...

Hi Jimmy, thanks, Yes I have checked the Sesko site and observed both Mishina and Jizo boshi, but wonder if this one fits either one exactly? What would members name this? Sorry about the polish...sword was in a shed for decades and had been a bit mis-handled by kids...but still OK. I never got it repolished as I am not happy with modern polish...rather have a dirty original than a 'post war trend' polish...just doesn't fit IMHO.

Hi all, I have a 1944 RJT blade by Nagao Kunishiro of Aomori Ken. He worked in Bizen style. I would like your learned comments on this boshi (sorry the polish is so dirty). I have previously considered this pattern but am uneasy about its correct name - can members help? I have now called it togari ko-maru (pointed small circle return)...is this accurate? Also, what to call the "abrupt" end to the return? Also - as you will notice, there is muneyaki a but further down - blade also has tobiyaki and hitatsura. regards,

Hi Matt, Bazza in Victoria just told me has seen your query and has contacted you...so all good. Thanks for those additional photos...from them it looks like your tang is 19.5 cm long (7 3/4 in) and your blade is 70 cm long (27 1/2 in). So, your tang seems about normal length (not stubby as I said) and your blade is a bit longer than normally found in RS mounts. I still think it is pre-gendai, but will have to wait for educated assessment. I also noticed that the same (rayskin) on the hilt looks like yellowed cellulose? Interesting discussion...keep us in the loop Matt. Regards, PS can you tell us where your dad served? May be a clue as to where this was surrendered.

Hi Trystan, Yes there is a lot of detail on Gunzoku we don't know. I can say that my Japanese teacher (b.1936) told me that her father served in Rabaul (New Britain, PNG) as a Gunzoku officer (medical) and had a sword "with a blue ribbon", so that fits with Nick's info about ribbon colours for 'above civilian and NCO level' Gunzoku . Interesting.

Aw shucks...you too Bruce...we love your work.

I see a little balloon with my name on it Bruce (I usually see these being pulled over the city skyline by a little bi-plane)...but hey, thanks for the thumbs up. I suspect you called my attention to this post as here again, we are seeing (it looks like) a very old blade that has been re-mounted in RS mounts for WWII use. Sure does look like a poss. koto blade...look interesting...worth saving for sure. how great it would have been if the RS mounts had survived with it...that's life. 26 in blade - 66 cm. A good WWII length.

Great stuff Mal, thanks for your great articles. It's all there Bruce...he used both names....I even had one years ago by Ishido Teruhide...but in those days 1970s, I don't think we even thought about tang numbers etc. Gotta love NMB and its members...

Bruce, Camera playing up, this is the best I could do. This is the Kunihide 98 you have on your list. The Kunihide 90 is a pic I saw on a 1991 NBTHK Hozon paper...but it is too vague to see let alone copy....sorry. The Kunihide 99 is just another one I noticed on some US site....didn't copy...sorry. The size, location, style was the same on all three though. Hope this helps. About the Mitsunobu/Teruhide...sorry, can't recall article now...any link?

Interesting. Are both of these gendaito? - yours especially Trystan looks RJT quality but with no mei - strange. Both in good quality fittings. Those RS mounts are the type usually seen on swords made in the Osaka-Kyoto-Hyogo region of the RJT scheme...my type (see pic) of "fat/plain/no hanger or chape type scabbards I have seen about 5-6 times....maybe intended for leather or canvas cover to have hanger loop? These made in same area). I have seen two (see pic) from Kyoto by Kunihide and both were August 1944 and both had small numerals stamped on the nakago mune...mine has 98 and the other has 90. The numbers seem the same size, position and 'layout' as yours - except these do not have the number '1' (smith's tally number?) stamped beside them. I know Bruce has a 'table' of tang numbers (I seem to remember) he has collected, so I think maybe this is one more mystery for Bruce - Sherlock to look into? (I haven't got a pic of the tang mune number on mine Bruce but just say the word and I can do one for you). Regards,

Well, Paul, Trystan, Dan...I've been 'into' WWII gunto full-on for 20 years and I have never seen an unsigned/undated RS. As your mumei example is "Gi" stamped Dan, it is clear it went through the manufacturing procedure according to the rules. So, interesting...nice example too. Thanks...again, with Japanese swords, never say never and never say always! Regards,

Gosh, just yesterday a RS with and unsigned blade was mentioned on another post...now you have picks of another one...amazing. In 50 years of collecting I have never seen mumei tangs in RS mounts and now ...2 in 2 days. Both mounts are 'low end' Seki RS mounts usually found on showato. Interesting. As they say, never say never with Japanese swords. Regards,

First unsigned (showato ) RS I have heard of...

Just on the point of "yellowing", I have not paid much attention over the years, but I don't think celluloid yellows? (need more examples?) I also don't know if celluloid same is a "upgrade" thing, or intro'd because it was found to be stronger and help prevent breaking of the hilt in combat thing. I have not really ever "assessed" celluloid same much...just some swords have it and some don't, but looking back through this post there is a lot of info/pics that should at least get the research started as to high/low quality thing or "intro' period in war thing etc, etc.. So I'll just add my own "bits" here (some have been mentioned in the above posts since 2011). So...I have 10 WWII gunto mounted swords. All except one are gendaito. 5 Type 98 - no celluloid....but I did have a Muto Hidehiro star Fukuoka 2602/2 1943/Feb. (med/large nodules - stamped on back of nakago mune ko / ho) 5 RS - 3 celluloid. Yamagami Munetoshi star Niigata 1943/5 (good qual. lacquered hilt/scabbard type - small nodules). Nakata Kanehide star Seki 1944/5 (Seki qual. steel scabbard type , 2 buttons, dust cover seppa - small nodules). Takashima Kunihide star Kyoto 1944/8 (high qual type from the Osaka/Hyogo/Kyoto region - 'rough' cloth? canvas? instead of same). Not sure if this tells us anything? Celluloid found on both types of mounts. All my celluloids had a star stamp. Nodule size varies Seems to start around in 1943?...more common on RS hilts? Regards,