george trotter

Thomas, here is page 196...there are two examples of that Kaneyoshi mei listed...the circle indicator says they are both koto smiths, mid 1400s both Seki/Mino....the info is included in the page you quote from but the quote seems a bit mixed up? This page copy should help clear this smith period thing up. Ian...I felt the blade was not gendaito, that is why I "pushed" this issue...but I am always prepared to be corrected. Maybe the owner Matt can provide more pics? and maybe contact a fellow Aussie collector (or vice versa) and have it looked at? Regards,

Great stuff Bruce. I sure would like Matt to provide clearer blade OA and other photos as, like you say, I too think this is the first old family blade seen in RS mounts. Be good to hear from members also...have I/we got this wrong?...any more out there? Regards,

A week has passed since this was posted, so I have to ask....what happened to this thread? Not another peep out of anyone. I thought this would be an interesting topic...the FIRST? pre-gendaito/showato blade seen in RS mounts (look how straight it is!). I thought this would get members digging through their collections to show us other examples of undated, one hole, pre-WWII blades. I know this is the first one I have seen in RS...but I could be wrong...I thought this would be something we would discuss? Regards

Don't say HADORI...that's a filthy word, like CREVICE, just disgusting!

That kanji below the mekugi ana looks like 'SA'. can't make out the others.

Thank you John, and I wish the same to you and yours...and to all fellow NMB members around the world. Happy 2022, George.

Yes Stephen, those are the only ones with these two kanji I could find...probaby the last one? I think Matt needs to carefully photograph a gently cleaned blade (give us measurements too) so that maybe some of our "non-WWII gendai addicted" members can give us an opinion on whether this is an older Mino blade re-used for WWII. When you think about it....we see many old blades in Type 98 mounts, so why not a few in RS? BTW this is the first time I have seen a Matsu (if it is Matsu) by itself with no 'tally" number stamped in - but it does have 'tally number' 18 in red paint...so sort of "fits the rules"? So, Matt, I see you are in Australia...wonder if you can check and try to meet up with an NMB member nearby? to get a proper assessment of this blade. (I am in WA). Bruce, as you might remember...I have two blades by Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata. Both have a tang number but only the later one has the Matsu stamp. 16/9 308 18/5 matsu 1080 This Matsu by itself (unless '18' in red paint is the tally number of that shop at that time - later stamped numbers?) will take a dedicated detective like you to see if any more are known. Regards,

Hi Bruce, thanks for putting this together. I does look to me that this is a Matsu stamp....a mountings shop ID stamp? from that area. I think, from the photos supplied by Matt that this blade has: 1. no star stamp 2. no date 3. one hole 4. is in RS mounts. I think this info and the photos themselves seem to show this is not a war-time made blade, but a pretty straight bladed, short tanged, probably Mino Province shinshinto blade with some age on the tang that has been mounted in RS mounts in WWII. The mounting shop did this private order job and put their shop stamp on the tang. The blade shape etc, and tang file marks, shape and nakago jiri looks to me to likely be one of the Mino Kaneyoshi smiths, possibly of 1781 see Hawley Revised 1981 KAN 3093 p.244. None of my books have an oshi of these smiths or I would post it. (If I am correct) this is probably the first non-gendaito/showato blade we have seen in these mounts. I always thought it likely that one would show up one day....this is it? I'd be interested in members thoughts....don't be shy, if I am wrong, just say so... Regards,

OK, thanks guys, Kaneyoshi...good. Be interested in the date, star, stamps etc. Regards,

Hi Matt, welcome to the NMB. Your sword looks to be of good, handmade, WWII quality. Bit hard to read the signature (may be Kaneyoshi as Ray said - he's got better eyes than me) Maybe take a clearer pic of the signature? (is there a star stamped just above the signature?) Also take a pic of the date on the other side (if there is one?). Is there a number stamped near the 'circle' stamp? These circle stamps usually have the character 'matsu' (pine) in the centre - probably put there by the mounting shop. Looks interesting, Regards, George (I'm in WA).

Thanks Eric, Very interesting, so Rinji mounts can have very long blades (my Masakazu of the earlier period is Sho 17/4) - your Nagamitsu (date?) is 27 3/8 in 69.4 cm (mine is 27 3/8 in 69.5 cm) so just about the same (my extreme point is slightly chipped off so was probably 69.6 or 7). Wonder if anything of 70 cm or longer will show up? Regards,

I have been to Numa Numa. It is a coconut plantation on the coast of Bougainville Island in the Solomons just outside the town/harbour of Wakunai. It was back in 1975...I rode a motorbike up the coast from Arawa. There was some hard fighting there in 1944/45. I remember some bomb craters between the rows of trees and and a wrecked Australian tank on the side of the road....but I don't remember seeing those guys, or those swords...sorry. Those were the days,

Thank you both....I will pass it on. Regards,

Many thanks Koichi sama, As this will be on display in a museum - can I just ask what UTSUGI SHUN means in English? Then I will pass it on. Regards,

Nice blade by Yamagami Akihisa of Niigata. Just for us WWII nerds (I mean Bruce and me) can you tell us if there is a stamp and number on the tip of the date side of the tang? Usually a 'matsu' kanji in a circle with a number. As this blade is dated sho 17/11 I think it should be numbered about 575 Also, does it have a star stamp on the top of the name side of tang. I have one by his elder brother. Regards,

Hi all, it's not often I have to ask, but in this case the family and personal names of the person here is a bit too 'fluid' for me to read. Anyone care to tell me his name? This belongs to a friend in a South Australia military museum. Thanks guys...

Thanks for that Neil, who the MRS gendai smith? (sorry if I'm asking a question you have addressed years ago...memory getting a bit "wonky". Regards,

Heh, Heh, yes, simply humour...I actually like valleys...not so keen on crevices though. Can't believe you have no TV ...so no Blackadder...sad! But no...definitely no mal y pense here. Blackadder was a series on BBC. It started in medieval times, then Tudor, then Georgian and finally WWI. Very funny English humour...the last episode was very sad however...all killed in the last charge "over the top" in WWI. You should look it up On-line? Keep up the good work. regards,

Very nice spread of the major 'types' of WWII Neil. Just for interest, who is the MRS blade made by? Regards,

Yes, Feb 1942 and Seki stamp. VERY nice writing....we don't usually see such high quality on showato Regards, To add: (sorry Brian) but ROKUJURO, I see you are located "in a deep valley"...can't help thinking of the word "crevice" ...to quote General Melchet in Blackadder "Now Blackadder, security is not a dirty word, but crevice, well, that is an absolutely filthy word". (Sorry, English humour)....can't help it.

Date is hard to see but looks to me like it might be "? thousand ? hundred year" (that is: Koki 2 thousand 6 hundredth year) = 1940.

I came across that sarute barrel second hole in the tip of the tang many years ago....unfortunately, I tapped the hilt off a bit too much and by the time I noticed this second hole, I had badly cracked/split/messed up the same/binding etc...dang!!!! Very rare, but if a hilt doesn't come off with a few taps...always check this....just saying. I learned the hard way.

Maybe Ishii ?

I think simply made in first half of 1942, so no stamp, and just sold within the existing 'private smith' system. To me, there is no problem/worry about stamps or faults. Enjoy,

Steve, Because your sword is dated 5/17 (May 1942), it is unlikely to have a star stamp. So it is probably made using his 'usual' source of tamahagane. So, short answer, it is OK to not have a star up to mid 1942. After that date, the star/no star situation changes. While there may be a few exceptions, the RJT scheme star does not appear on tangs until the last half of 1942, and from my experience, usually in the last 3 months of 1942, So to have the star after mid 1942 confirms quality. To not have a star on a known RJT smith tang after mid 1942 can mean: 1. it failed RJT standards guidelines, was not stamped and was "sold outside the system"....this must? mean it is lower quality/has faults etc. 2. it was made privately by a RJT smith....this raises the question...where did he get the tamahagane etc. I don't know the rules for private work. So, yours seems OK without a star...and to answer your question, the star confirms quality in a blade, but not having it does not "make it less" - that depending on the date on the tang and the quality of the work. Regards,