paulb

Hi Alex, No I do not think it is a nagamaki blade. It is not uncommon to see Katana with this type of hi carved in to them. I assume the steep slope from the mune to shinogi and the naginata style hi were all intended to lihten the blade. but the overal shape is still katana rather than nagamaki naoshi. regards

Thanks Clive and I much appreciated your input in helping reach this conclusion. Best Regards Paul

Dear All, Some time ago I wrote a paper for the Northern Token Soceity about a Hizen Tadayoshi blade I have had in my collection for 10 or more years. In summary it is a wakazashi niji mei Tadayoshi. It has two sets of papers, the first NBTHK white papers from 1979 which simply said it was Tadayoshi, The second set from 1969 by the famous polishe Hakusui that attributed to the sandai. My problem was that the NBTHK appeared to attibute it to the Shodai, Hkusui the Sandai. Two character signatures are rare, for the 3rd generation as far as I am aware they are unknown. The workmanship however was much more in line with the Sandai than the Shodai. After more than 9 years of occassional research, conversations with both Roger Robertshaw and Clive Sinclaire I came to the conclusion (without huge confidence) that this was the work of the shodai from around 1610-1615. Yesterday I took delivery of the first 4 volumes of Juyo Zufu. While thumbing through the second volume there appeared an oshigata of a niji mei Tadayoshi katana. The hamon illustration looked very similar and the mei was almost identical (1 stroke in the Tada character was marginally shorter on the wakazashi). Equally important reviewing the write up (thank you for the help Markus) it described nijimei as rare, but also that the hada was zanguri (course pear skin). This combination has more or less confirmed the original tentative conclusion that this is the work of Shodai Tadayoshi working around 1610-1612. The point of sharing the above is that regardless of how many reference works we have, and I now have some 20 years worth, there is always something of value to find in other publications. Had I not found that I could have continued to scratch around for another 10 years without gain much. As it is I can now focus on another piece!

me too. look forward to seeing your latest work Markus Best Regards Paul

Hi Niclas, Sorry but I think you are wrong. True the majority of swords made in the past were for fighting and either perished during their use or have survived in a worn state. These do not, in relation to their age and when compared to other antiques, command high prices. The highly priced art swords we seen on many dealer websites and exhibitions were made by top craftsmen using the best techniques and material. They were made slowly and were expensive when made. They have been cared for, even cherished, over many hundreds of years. While it is true many show some signs of use it is unlikely they saw anywhere near the amount of fighting the lower cost pieces did. If they had it is unlikely they would have come through so many centuries unscathed. There is a wealth of difference between a top piece made by a recognised craftsman to order and a mass produced or semi-mass produced work. There is room within the subject for both but no amount of debate will turn one in to the other. regards Paul

Peter, Also probably not much help but I live within 30 mins of Newcastle airport and last time I looked you could get Easyjet and Ryan air flights for around a fiver. If ever you have cause to hit the noeth east I would be happy to have asword day/evening cheers

Hi Henry A very happy Christmas to you too! After much study and research I think what you have is something called a tsuba :? best regards Paul

I think the book illustrated by Brian was published in the late 1940s or 1950. It was written to offer an introduction to the occupying forces after the war. I think in the hope that swords might be better protected if better understood.

Ford, As said before when Bob first showed me both the Tsuba and the DVD I am hugely impressed. Great work and fantastic end result. One thing that did concern me in the video and I was reminded by Peter's mail was your use of mercury and gold to gild parts. If not mistaken isn't this the same technque used by French furniture makers of the 17th century? As I remember the average life expectancy for those artisans was around 35 years as they poisened themselves with mercuric oxide given off in the gilding process. Without wishing to sound like either your grandmother or an over zealous health and safety executive I hope you are taking all necessary steps to protect your lungs! best regards Paul

I think we are in agreement. I have also seen what you describe and many would be students turned off early in their career. Re Fair price can only truly be determined by the buyer. if they happy with what they bought and paid for one could argue it is fair. However that does not allow for the type of transaction you mentioned when the inncoent are delbrately misled and taken advantage of.

I think we are crossing wires here. I understand completely your point about manufacturing in France and the UK. However the same people who complain about the loss of the European textile industry for example are equally happy to buy cheap goods in supermarkets which have been made in low cost environments. manufacturing has travelled the globe from one poor region to the next to ensure western consumers can buy their goods at low cost. My point about swords is that when you buy a blade I dont think you should autmatically assume you will sell it at a profit or even the same price at some point in the future. Antiques go in and out of fashion and while they offer greater stability than consumer goods they can still fluctuate dramatically. The obvious example are the swords in the Compton or manno collections which achieved incredible prices at auction. I doubt any of them subsequently hit those prices on re-sale. There is a difference between buying , selling at a slight loss down the road having had many years of enjoyment out of a piece, and buying at an inflated price or being offered a very low price when desperate to sell. Both of these happen neither are a pleasant part of our interest. But they are also not unique to our area. As said previously on many occassions there are some very good and honorable dealers in this field. Identify them and build a relationship with them. It is in their interest to deal with you fairly. As you say we have done this for many years and I am very comfortable buying from those people (assuming I ever have any money!)

Careful Jean at this time of good will to all you will have me sinking in to the depths of despair. for the first time I can ever remember I have to disagree with you. Of course there is a win-win situation. If the buyer buys something, they are happy with both the item and the price they paid for it and the seller is equally happy with the sale how is that not be a win-win? True when the buyer comes to move on the piece they may not recover their money or make a substantial profit but that doesnt mean they were cheated in the first place. I am now entering my 40th year of international business and have been fortunate enough work around the world. During that time I am sure I have been deceived on occassion and occassionally got a less good deal than I might have hoped. But in the vast majority of cases the transaction was mutually beneficial and usually resulted in further orders. The same is true with swords. I have rarely felt I have been cheated, taken advantage of or even screwed. When I have, it has to be said it was more a result of my greed and stupidity than someone elses delibrate dishonesty. On the other hand I have bought swords from Japan the USA and Europe which I have been delighted with. Equally the sellers have always been happy to do further business, some I would regard as friends as well. That I think is a win-win situation.

Thank you reinhard for an interesting addition to the thread. Looking at your examples brought another point to mind. Just because it is a good sword it doesnt mean you have to like it. I confess that I do not generally like Soshu swords, especially later ones. Although I do not dispute the technical quaity and workmanship in their manufature I just find them aesthetically unattractive. Basically they are too loud and "blousy". Having said that I have also seen in hand swords by some of my favourite smiths such as Rai Kunitoshi that have left me totally flat, they had as much to see as a yard of pump water. The point I think I am getting to is that what makes a good sword is the material, the way it is worked and the way all the elelments come together. This can be achieved in a miriad of ways. However the resultant product will and cannot appeal to all and no matter how deep one studies the subject and how much one understands the workmanship and skill employed in the process one wont necessarily like the end result. Thankfully we are all different and such variation in taste, preference and choice is what has created the range of styles we see today. BTW if offered a Soshu blade of the quality illustrated I am sure I would not let my prinicipals stand in the way of me accepting it regards Paul

Franco and Barry make an interesting point regarding changes in taste or focus. The question is, is this change a result of greater learing and education which enhances appreciation or just a natural progression in to new fields? I have also changed my focus over the years, starting as most did with a Gunto purchase ( I had that blade for 14 years) then in to an almost exclusive Hizen phase focussing on the Tadayoshi's rather than Masahiro although I did have one shodai Masahiro blade I loved. Finally moving in what I suppose is a logical progression in to Yamashiro, Enju and Aoe work. I am also a closet Ko-Bizen and Ichimonji enthusiast but have no examples of either in my current collection. I think as Barry intimated focus changes as you learn more. Once you learn to look for and see finer points in blades your appreciation increases. One of the best ways to start seeing finer points is to do kantei. I think you look more closely and in greater detail when doing this. I think it also promotes a discipline in to the way you look at and analyse a blade. It has little to do with getting the right answer and proving you are a clever boy (or girl) but much more about focussing study and improving understanding.

As a reversal to this thinking, I am now at the point of looking to my over-qualified offspring to start earning the fortunes their higher education promised so they can buy their poor old father the blades he might of purchased were he not funding their education! I think I may have a very very long wait

Hi david, As John suggests the original reason for doing kantei was to determine whether a sword was of good quality. To assess the quality it does in part need to be viewed in context, does it exhibit the features you would expect from a given period, school, smith. I understand your point about being able to recognise quality without necessarily being able to identify a blades origin. However if you can put what you are seeing in to context by assessing the features against what you would epxect to see from a given school I believe the experience and enjoyment are enhanced. Many years ago I said to my then mentor "I just collect what I like" His immediate response was "Fine, study more and you will understand what you like better". Kantei is an extremely useful learning tool. For the past few years I have been attempting the NBTHK monthly kantei which appears in their magazine. Although not the same as a proper hands on exercise it is still an incredibly valueable learning tool. Having made an initial assessment I am forced to go back and re-look at references double check features etc. It is an extremely effective learning tool and yes I believe it does also enhance the ability to appreciate good swords better. As you would expect I think I learn more from those I get wrong than I do the correct ones (which based on my success rate is probably just as well:-))

Tobiyaki are a feature not a fault or a bad thing and are a characterisitc of particular schools. I agree with Lee that what you have look a lot more like tobiyaki than jifu although I am not altogether sure. Do you have any images of the whole blade? determining the age might well point you in the right direction regarding what you are seeing. Some features are specific to koto blades others only appear in shinto or later work. First impression based on what I can see so far would be a shinto or shin-shinto blade rather than koto. regards

Hi The images posted are not Jifu (at least not what I understand Jifu to be) As Guido mentioned earlier Jifu are dark patches which appear in the jigane. Most commonly seen in Koto blades from Ko-Bizen, Aoe and I am sure otherrelated schools. it is avery subtle effect. Because of this it is not easy to photograph or reproduce.

Jock, Just an intetresting aside from your post. You mention your "end of tunnel" ambition of 70 perfect blades. I am impressed with your ambition (albeit said tongue in cheek) but I think the comment highlights another stage of the collecting process. When I started I worried that I only had one or three or five swords and bought everything I could find and afford that was remotely Japanese. Later as I learned I became more selective. A second concern entered the process, the more swords you hold in the collection the greater your responsibility for caring for them. I would hate to reach the point where looking after x number of blades became an unwelcome task rather than a pleasure and the resposibility of care detracted from the enjoyment. Having gone full circle I am now at the point where I think I could quite happily have a collection of one or two swords (they would have to be the right ones) and a comprehensive library. As it stands my collection has half the number of swords today that it did 4 years ago, they are better examples and are altogether a more manageable number to care for. Sorry to go off at a tangent but you mentioned stagers of collecting and it triggered the response regards

Hi Justin, I have copied and pasted part of the NBTHK criteria below relating to Tokubetsu Hozon papers. As said above take a look on Danny's site for the full list: Muromachi and Edo period mumei blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule. However, if a blade shows good workmanship, attributable to a famous smith, having ubu-nakago, and in good preservation, it may receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper. Sending your sword to Japan can be both expensive and time consuming. If at the end of the process all the paper tells you is that it is an Edo period wakazashi it can also be an expensive disappointment. On the plus side Bob Benson is highly regarded and if he recommends going through that process he must consider it worthwhile. Perhaps a good compromise is to submit it at the NPO shinsa next year. Based on the result from that you could then decide if you wanted to submit to the NBTHK. I can understand how confusing this process and the various options can seem but there is no black or white answer. Regards

Hi Justin, A very good guide to papers and what standard is required is listed on Danny masseys website http://www.nihontocraft.com. The subjet has been much discussed on this board over the years and usually generates some heated exchange. At risk of starting another "debate" I would suggest the following: 1. For a sword to be papered by any otrganisation there must be enough detail visible to allow the panel to assess the features. The poorer the condition the harder it is to give an accurate judgement. 2. I think that currently the NBTHK is the most highly regarded papering authority and their papers offer greatest commercial benefit. Although not necessarily adding to the value, a sword with an NBTHK paper is generally easier to sell than one with no paper or papered by an alternative body. This is particularly the case when buying via the internet. I think this is confirmed if you look at the proportion of blades papered by the NBTHK which are for sale on Japanese dealer sites. There is undoubtedly a premium for papered blades simply because you are removing doubt about the authenticity. This doesnt mean they worth more, just that a papered blade is more likely to achieve its true market value than one that isnt. 3. What appears on the paper depends on the level of paper and the organisation. One critism of the NBTHK is when they fail a blade they do not offer additional information whereas when the NTHK fail a blade they will tell you what they think it is. I am not sure about the NPO having not had anything appraised by them but I am sure Chris can confirm whether they do or dont. 4 On a basic NBTHK Hozon paper, they will state what they think the blade is, confirm its length and period of manufacture. 5. On Juyo papers (or at least the supporting zufu entry) the NBTHK will also describe the features of the blade. hope this helps

Dear Mariusz, Old NBTHK papers have gone through a rough time of late. This has been especially increased by a number of "blue papers" appearing over the past few years which have proven (or at least beleived to be)to be fakes. While it is true that the NBTHK went through a bad time in the early 80s and had their reputation rocked, I think it is a mistake to beleive all older papers are wrong or fakes. It is likely that anybody forging papers would focus on top end attribution (hence the blue previously mentioned rather than the more common white or green papers) Also on smiths that would make the effort of faking worthwhile. With great respect to this blade which looks perfectly acceptable, I dont think it falls in to this catagory. It is possible that, based on later research, old attributions may be proven to be wrong but this is not a deliberate attempt to deceive. With regard to the sword I can see why you might think it is a plugged hole, but based on the image I am not absolutely convinced. Having said that I am not sure what else could cause this effect. I have never seen a hole plugged with iron before and would assume it is extremely difficult to do. Personal opinion I think the sword looks ok. I dont think it is naginata-naoshi but made in this form which was not uncommon. as mentioned above if it were a naginata I would not expect to see the boshi turn back. Without looking at the paper in detail and comparing to known authentic examples I am unable to comment on the authenticity of it but my feeling is that it also is ok. Not sure if any of this helps but wish you well with your further research. Regards Paul

Hi Niclas, It is a qualityand or condition issue. Either the blades offered are off a lesser quality of manufacutre, or may have faults. As always there is an element of subjectivity in this designation. I also am guessing that these blades would not receive papers from the major organisations (opinion only) Having said all the negatives I am assuming that these blades must alos exhibit all the qualities required for the sport. regards Paul

Stephen, I only ever owned one of these and traded it in years ago. At the time the going rate for one was between 110 and 150 UK pounds ($200). It seems incredible when you see TH blades by good koto and Shinto smiths going for less than they did in the 1990's these seem to have risen by an order of x10. Is it me or have the values of art, aesthetic and value gone mad?

Without getting in to a protracted debate about the merits or lack thereof of different forms of gloves cant we just agree that the method used for the past x hundreds of years is proven to be the best? Hold the sword either in the tsuka of the shirasaya or if it is totally naked by the nakago. Support the blade with the other hand using a multi folded piece of soft cloth (traditionally silk). Every Japanese video I have seen on sword care have always used this method. Gloves of whatever form are more likely to cause problems than prevent them. Also dont only consider handling as the cause of problems.I would also suggest that by far the most damage is done by people talking over blades, the resultant saliva and moisture from the mouth falling on to the steel creating small rust spots in a very short time. Regards Paul