paulb

Hi Eric, Damn and there was me believing I was perfect for 50+ years :D I fully agree that all things contain imperfection, what I should have more accurately said is that I look at blades trying to find imperfections. The difference being if I find them in a blade I do not regard them as a cause for celebration. I know I have a very long way to go in trying to better understand his subject, but I am trying and I hope it is more useful to ask the question rather than remain in ignorance. Ford, Thank you for the ceramic explanation it was very helpful. I look forward to seeing other examples

Thanks to everyone for your views and explanations as to why this work is considered a masterpiece. I think the references which appeared in several post describing the "natural" appearance of the metal is where I am struggling. last year at a UK meeting of members ofthe NBTHK we were given a fantastic prsentation about Higo tsuba (apologies to the speaker but I have lost thier contact details and name) One of the pieces he used to illustrate a particular work had a large flaw in the plate from the original forging. He went to great lengths to explain how the presence of this naturally occuring fault enhanced the beauty of the piece. This is where I have a problem. For now nearly 30 years I have scrutinised swords looking at the perfection of the surface. Any fault as a result of the forging or poor treatment was and is detrimental to the piece and if a result of manufacture reflects badly on the skill of the smith. I could not imagine ever looking at a hole in a blade and thinking it added to the aesthetic charm. I appreciate that there are issues relating to functionality faults in blades weakening their performance etc but on a pure appreciation of the aesthetic there is a complete contadiction in what is accepteble, even desirable in a tsuba of this nature and a top quality sword. Dont misunderstand me, I greatly enjoy many more natural and flowing sukashi designs and the quality of good iron. It is just in the more extreme areas (Yagu is another example) I find the roughness of the material and flatness of the composition is beyond my ability to appreciate.

Jean in modern speak " no problemo bro" (I think) in the Queen's English "that is quite alright old chap" in the local Northumbrian dialect "Nay bother man" please take the approriate line as and when they suit. I will now stop diverting from original topic!

Ok so my typing sucks too when are we going to get a spool chucker on here?

I have to confess when I see this described as a masterwork it makes me realise why I focus on swords. I am sure this is my failing but I can see nothing in this that attracts. The design is "clunky" the textrue of the iron course and from the image the colour looks poor as well. I am sure I am being sacrilegious but I wonder if it lacked the mei what most people reaction would be. It has feeling of "the emperors new clothes" about it. Please enlighten this ignorant non-fittings person. Why is this thought to be so good? thanks paul

Problem is Stephen when I do manage to speak to someone I no longer understand what they are talking about In the last 10 years a whole new English vocabulary has been created that seems to ignore all basic structure rules and grammar. ( I think I am beiginning to sound like my father!)

Hi Roy, I confess to not being a Mino fan (except for very early when they didnt look like Mino:-) ) But The Ara-nie reminds me of Satsuma work I have seen from the shin-shinto period. I wonder if that might be a possibility and it would solve your excess of Kanefusa as well regards paul

Brian, It is another interesting point that is impossible to answer with certainty. However I worte some time ago about a naginata naoshi blade which was attributed to early Shikkake work. Based on the principal that most Yamato blades were made for fighting monks and naginata were generally utilitarian it would seem reasonable that they suffered heavily in battle and did not last as well as swords. This was an example that had lasted through some 27 generations, it had been shortened to mount as a wakazashi but other than that was in extremely healthy condition. I do not believe it could have been so well preserved had its quality not been recognised very early in its 650+ year history and it had been removed from daily conflict. So I assume an earlier owner cherished it as a work of aesthetic beauty and it was held in high regard by subsequent generations. Of course it could just be he hit someone important with it and preserved it for that reason alone. I also think that the appreciation of swords as art was well documented in the 15th and 16th century. Perhaps more accurately I should say the craftsmanship was recognised and valued. whether this would be described as art or quality in terms of functionality takes us back to where we started.

George, I think your point assumes that imported iron was consistant. While this might be true in the 20th. century I would doubt it necessarily the case in the 17th. century. Comments prior to this discussion suggest otherwise and that the imported material had higher and more variable levels of impurities. While Tamahagane has been produced in more or less the same way between 1600 and 1940 the same cannot be assumed for imported steel. Therefore the material under test in the 20th century is likely to be very different from the earlier material. regards Paul

Carlo, I think your point is very well expressed and certanly reminded me that we need always to read such reports in context. Throughout history propaganda has always played a major part. I am not in a postion to comment on the validity or otherwise of the report you and George refer to, but it would make perfect sense that the results were weighted to meet the motivational requirements of the times. Also your point about Hizen is well made. basically they made good swords, This was due to their skill and technique. Whether they incorporated some foreign iron or not and whether that enhanced or retracted from the quality is open to debate but I think beyond proof. Certainly I think it is safe to say that their very high reutation is not solely the result of them using imported iron in place of tamahagane. regards Paul

Hi George, No problem in stating the obvious, I must have read that section umpteen times long since. I think that is why I have this built in negative feel about using foreign steel in this way. I still am of the belief that this was used partly to be different and as a new fashion and simply because it was available and they could use it. I have not read anywhere that it added physical value to a sword through some superior properties. hence the question. Also it was only used in combination with Tamahagane not as a complete replacement. Is that others opinion as well? Best Regards Paul

Roger, A great article thank you. (I would have loved to see the 4 hour version!) As always a piece like this raises a number of interesting questions which probably cant be answered but might be worth considering. I have listed some below: 1. My perception was that the incorporation of foreign steel by more recognised users such as Yasatsugu was that it was used because it was new, fashionable and in combination with Tamahagane created a jigane with interesting variation in hada. Effectively it was a fashion statement which differentiated his work from others. 2. I think your post offers compelling circumstantial evidence that Hizen smiths on occassion used imported iron. The question is why? was it fashion- no because it was publicised in the way the Edo smiths did Quality- I am not sure any one has suggested imported iron offerd any quality over and above locally produced stock.Has anyone seen any statement either made at the time or subsequently regarding the quality differences between home produced iron and imported stock? Again my understanding was that tamahagane was a much purer and superior product and capable of being welded more effectively. Also much of the structural activity regarding the production of nie, chickei etc was a aided by these qualities. Availability- As you rightly point out there was high demand and raw material sitting there so it would make sense to use it. Assuming that amongst the numerous members there were metalagists it would be interesting to hear their views on the chemical differences in the material and how they might impact the final sword. Regarding the point you made about the tightness of the hada and relative coarseness of the core steel. I am not sure this can be regarded as indicative of the use of foreign steel. in the Kamakura and Nambokochu periods the Awattaguchi, Rai and Aoi schools were all producing extremely fine tight jigane from home grown material. Also coarse core steel is I think common to all periods of manufacutre, it was softer, folded less and therefore had a more open structure. As said above I think your post offers a great deal of insight and stimulates a lot of thought. I am not sure that the questions I am asking have been or can be addressed but I think it is an interesting line of inquiry. Best Regards paul

Aint that the truth :lol:

Eric, thats because sentimental oldies like me hang on to them

Thank you Keith for the modification of your point. Lee, you are right regarding the value to the beginner and potential problems, I was addressing the more general comments about Robinson and his book not the value or otherwise to the beginner which was the original question. I agree that if read in isolation by a novice there is potential to do harm. I am not sure it would figure in my top 4 or 5 titles for a beginner. I think it is something which does contain some useful information and, a little more sentimentally, that it deserves its place on my book shelf as part of our own development in this field. I hope this clarifes my answer a little. regards paul

Hi Chris, I have also heard but cant remember the source. Remembering when it was written at what was availale at the time it would be a little surprising if there weren't gimei blades illustrated. We are just very fortunate that we have far better access to information than B. Robinson ever did. Regarding some of the more vitriolic comments made so far by others on this thread Does Robinson have value today? I agree with Ford, selectively he does. Is his work full of errors and the ravings of an idiot?, absolutely not. It certainly has errors which have come to light based on later research, the same is true of the NBTHK, the NTHK or any other body studying in this area. If we didnt make mistakes and modify our views based on what we have learned where is the progress? With the material available to him and with his commitment and effort my understanding is that he did more to promote and preserve this art than anyone else in the west (certainly the UK) at that time. Equally important his reputation as a kind and knowedgible gentleman willing to help others learn and understand stand him in high regard. Unfortunately some appear too willing to "bad mouth" that which has gone before a little too easily. I wonder in years to come whether others will be as uncharitable about our efforts as we appear to be about his. Regards Paul

Hi Jim, I have spent a lot of years collecting and studying Hizen blades and think I have read most of the major references (in translation) over those years. I also have never seen any reference to Hizen smiths using foreign steel. Because of its location and the amount of trading going on from Hizen I assume it was perfectly possible for Nabishima to import iron. So while feasible I havent seen it recorded anywhere. Can you confirm the source of this? regards paul

Eric, thank you for the armour images they look very interesting. In response to your question I think that high and low end not only can exist together but are essential for each others survival. This is fundemental in all area whether it be buying a house a Japanese sword or anything else. As you rightly say the whole illustrates the full spectrum of history and are therefore of equal importance and merit. Also we are all different and different things appeal to different people. I think the key is to know what it is you are buying, and buying it for what it is. Problems occur when someone buys something at the low end in the belief they are gaining a high end piece.

As in most history legitimacy comes from winning. Being a member of one of the most mixed up natiions in the world Roman, Saxon, Dane, Norman etc means you can choose whichever lineage suits at the time. Sometimes in cricket matches I even pretend to have Australian blood (but rarely!)

Yes but Keith why would they want to? :D

Firstly focus, identifyng those aspects of a subject that appeal and then pursuing them secondly knowledge; it enables the collector to be selective and buy only those things which add to their collection. Todd regarding collecting what you like, there is nothing at all wrong with this as long as you don't do what I used to which is use it as an excuse not to study. I remember saying exactly that to my teacher of years gone by, Deryk Ingham, His response was immediate "thats fine but study more and then you will understand why you like what you do" I did as I was told and never forgot the comment. regards Paul

Hi Chris, In my time I have been both. When I started anything that had a hint of being Japanese sword related would be the cause of lust and expenditure. I convinced myself that every blade I bought in military mounts was a beautiful hand-made blade waiting to be discovered by someone with real insight (i.e. me). Eventualy I started reading more, taking note of what I was being told, thanks to such people as Ian Bottomley and Deryk Ingham of the Northern Token Soceity and started to look for something more. Eventually I ended up with a number of swords but found I only regularly looked at 4 or 5 of them. I then opted to follow the almost universal Collectors advise to collect fewer better pieces rather than many mediocre. I spent the past few years reducing my collection and hopefully improving its quality. As a result of the above I dont think I am a collector any longer. My collecting lust for swords has been satisfied. I treasure the blades I have and will continue to do so but have no burning desire (nor the cash) to add to them significantly. One should never say never but for the moment I much enjoy going back to a purer student status and getting in to deeper understanding than I do trying to buy things I either cant afford or match quality levels of what I already have (quality statement is based purely on personal taste. what I have is exactly what I want to see in a Japanese blade) So I would say I am now neither but certainly closer to collector than accumulator. regards paul

A couple of years ago for reasons that I need not describe here I took the decision to reduce my invlovement with the various soceities I had belonged to. On reflection I realised that if I continued to do that I would effectively become a hermit. While not making any claim to expertise or learning I did and do believe that knowledge and experience not shared is wasted, So in an attempt to stay in touch I have kept some involvement with this board. based on this current thread and the several other bad tempered ones that preceded it I believe this was a mistake. Can I make the following points which are based not on claims of expertise, great intelligence or any god given talent but justified in the fact that I have studied and loved this subject for more than half of my life and been lucky enough to meet and deal with some very fine people in that time. 1. Not everyone has the opportunity to follow their dream and study first rate art in its place of origin. Those that do make considerable sacrifice and deserve respect for the effort they make. 2. those of us who have been unable or unwilling to do this have had to take a different route spending time studying as much written work and seeing the best examples they could. We also have to accept that it will be almost impossible to reach the level of understanding those who do study in Japan achieve. 3. For those that have devoted their adult lives to this interest it must be incredibly frustrating firstly that those who are not prepared to make a similar effort seek almost immediate gratification and knowledge. How many first purchase ebay swords have appeared here over the years with claims that the buyer has uncovered a national treaure and then gone off arse in hand (excuse the anglo saxon term) when told otherwise. 4. Equally gaulling is when those with very limited knowledge starting spouting opinions as though they were statements of fact. This can only mislead and it does. On the other side those placing their first steps in to the subject we all love need support and guidance. It doesnt need to be always gentle but it does need to be constructive. It is apparent that this approach is becoming increasingly difficult to achieve. Virtually every thread that starts with something more interesting than "whats it worth" or "I found this on Ebay" ends up with bad tempered argument. With this in mind I seriously question what hope there is for this study in the future? Anyway I am sure this will add little to the debate and should the moderators feel it inapproriate please remove it. But as a word of caution if the Ego's continue to rule this board will go the way of many other societies andf groups and will fail.

two thoughts come to mind 1. Whether it is my machine my eyes or just me they look different shapes. The first looks longer and narrower. 2. When demonstrating the weakness of colour vision a classic test is to put the same object against a white and then black background. I wonder if some of the differences we are seeing are just because one is shot on a white background and the other black. (doesnt explain the shape though so maybe that is just my eyes )

Just to be different and probably prove my lack of fittings knowledge I would go for the top one being original and the bottom the copy. the plate looks more natural on the top image the lower work looks more contrived.