paulb

Hi Eric, thank you for the clarification, I agree totally. I confess that on many occassions in the past I have greatly enjoyed the speculation about a mumei blade that has come in to my possession for a short period. regrettably on nearly all of those occassions the fantasy was just that! regards paul

Eric wrote: This might be true, but I believe they don't disclaim to an authentication paper when it is an important sword, isn't it? Eric Sorry Eric I dont understand the point you are making? With regard to your comments about the fittings museum sale you are absolutely right, I am sorry I was getting my sales confused, the one I was thinking of was the Manno Art Museum. Also the Rai sword I mentioned was in fact signed (not sure whether it is early morning or just age that is upsetting my memory) However within that sale there are a number of examples of mumei suriage blades attributed to Yukimitsu, Norishige and Taima and ranging in papers from Juyo to Tokubetsu Juyo all of which commanded strong prices. So I think the comments of the earlier mail hold true. Best Regards paul

Hi Alex, I can only offer an opinion as much of my understanding is based on aging stories, perhaps others closer to the various papering organisations can confirm or otherwise the validity of this view. Certainly in the past (1970s and 80s) there was a major problem with the NBTHK regarding papers which were either inaccurate of falsified. This resulted in re-organisation and a restructuring of the papering system. There have also been some high profile accusations in the more recent past related to members of the NTHK prior to the formation of the two seperate bodies. Whether any of these accusations resulted in legal action I do not know but certainly they did cause damage to the relevent orgainisations. Part of the problem is in the wording of the paper. In Inami Kakasui's book he describes his papers and quotes the line which " Guarantee" the swords authentcity. This 100% commitment also appeared on NTHK papers in the past (not sure if it still does or has been modified) Making such a black and white statement on something which cannot be proven may be regarded as foolhardy and asking for trouble. I sometimes wonder if because of this shinsa panels take a very conservative approach so they cant be later accused of over stating a swords importance. I think the current view is that papers are based on opinion which may change in light of continued research. certainly at one point the NBTHK were recommending re-submitting fittings on a regular basis as ongoing research could result in views changing. I would therefore think it highly unlikely that one could go to litigation if a sword or fitting papered to a different school/maker if it was resubmitted. As said above papers are based on opinion, albeit very highly qualitfied opinion. Unless one could prove negligence or corruption and deliberate attempt to deceive I think it would be very difficult to win a legal case, but I am not a lawyer so those who are may have a very different view. Ultimately while not perfect the papering systems offered by the NBTHK, NTHK, NTHK-NPO while not perfect offer the best option we have to gain a more qualified opinion than we might otherwise have. Whether one chooses to avail oneself of this opportunity is a matter of personal choice as is the decision as to whether you accept their views. hope this helps regards Paul

As you say " All things being equal" is the key and if two blades by the same smith made to the same quaity but one signed and the other not, I would go for the ubu signed blade every time. My point was/is that if you start out with a view that "I am only going to collect ubu signed swords" you remove a vast range of very high quality blades from your potential collection. Just take a look at some of the sales catalogues of the important collections such as Compton, the Japanese sword museum etc. They are absolutely full of O-suriage mumei blades whose quality outshines much of the later signed works. Regardless of Mr. Nakahara's theories there are a large number of very high quality mumei Koto blades in existence that are recognised by every sword association as being the work of particular, important smiths. A classic example is the Rai Kunitoshi piece in the aforemetioned fittings museum sale which is designated as a National treasure (by the government not a sword association) and sold for 180,000 UK pounds. I think it comes back to the much repeated lines, "first look at the sword". Do this without any pre-conception or any pre-planned restrictions. If you like what you see then decide whether you can live with it as an unsigned work. But do not dismiss blades just because they are unsigned. For a long time I focussed almost exclusively on Hizen swords, while I enjoyed it at the time I later realised that there were many other works I was missing out on by being too single minded. Now (I hope) I take a broader view. Of my own collection 75% consists of suriage mumei pieces. If I had to reduce the collection to one or two blades the ones I would keep would be from this group. Regards paul

with no desire to reopen the discussion regarding the new book. If you limit yourself to ubu swords with a mei you are missing out on a great deal. Without doubt if you ask many of the longer term collectors on the board which are their best and most cherished blades nearly all will show you Mumei, suriage koto blades. Do not read Mr. Nakahara's book in isolation, look at the many other sources avaialble and having compared their opinions with his make a judgement. regards paul

I am sure there will be a lot of differing opinions on this but from my perspective I would say the following: although I would not regard the flaw as fatal it is unattractive and would reduce the swords value to some extent. The amount of reduction would vary a lot depending on the age, rarity and what the rest looked like. If this were a Kamakura blade by a highly rated smith I would be happier to live with it. If it was a shinto piece or later it is harder to accept. In a Koto piece this may be the result of polishing over many years, with a shinto blade, which should have had far fewer polishes, it is indicative of poor workmanship. Of course the reality is never this black or white but at least it offers a starting point regards Paul

George, I am not sure why we struggle to understand the differences you describe. soceties and therefore cultures are made up of individuals. taste and preference are as diverse as looks. We are fortunate that in many countires now there is a rich ethnic mix, both histoircal and current which can contribute to that diversity. One of the advantges of the internet is that it has become easier to study and appreciate cultures of different races more easily. Also lets remember that sword smiths like many other artists were making swords to meet a demand of the market. Therefore we should not be surprised that different styles appeal to different people, they always have. thats why the different types were produced and we arent faced with a uniform line of Bizen lookalike blades on every dealers table ( thank goodness ).

George, I hope I can answer your question simply form my point of view. The answer is I collect swords as both Artefact and Art. The reasons I chose swords as a focus to collect are many but I guess the main ones are: Obsessive interest in history above all other subjects since I was 5 years old and predominantly military history. Alongside this a love of art, amongst my many other failings I am a failed painter. Within the sword you have the fascination of martial history combined with supreme beauty in creating something whichin the words of Cameron-Stone is "the nearest thing to perfection made by human hand". As I have progressed the technical side of manufacture combined with the aesthetic of a blades appearance has, to some extent, taken priority over the historical significance. I believe this beauty is best seen in koto work. With regard to Yasakuni swords I have seen few but those I have seen vary between those I would cherish as part of a collection while others are as interesting as a yard of pump water, so I cannot make a blanket decision as to their aesthetic worth (nor can I for any other sword period each blade should be judged on its own merits) I am rather perplexed at the emotion such debates create. There is no wrong or right answer, people collect what interests them. Provided they do no harm to a piece while in their care and it is well cared for their motives can and should remain their business.

Hi Herbert, I have to confess I am not a happy internet kantei body but I thought I would have a go. shape suggests late koto period Oei or a little later and some Soshu influence. I am not sure what I am seeing but if that is strong utsuri I can understand where Peter is coming from with his Bizen bid. There appears to be masame hada towards the mune and sunagashi within the hamon. Based on the above I would ay either Sue Bizen or Sue Seki late Oei period If Bizen then possibly a later Osafune smith such as Kanemitsu Regards Paul Ps if it wasnt for the apparent Utsuri I might be tempted towards a Muramasa derivite based on shape and hamon.

please lets not get in to the paper discussion again, if you have been reading recent threads ypu will konw this has probably already been done to death. As always one must please oneself in how you choose to buy. For many the hunt is important and they get a great buzz from scanning auction sites. My concern is that because of the pit falls and dubious dealers on such sites it is not a good place to learn. there are already too few people studying this subject and it would be a great shame if newcomers were pushed away by bad experience on Ebay or other sites. Hence my strong anti Ebay for beginners view. I fully agree that there are many good buys to be had on dealer sites at present also. regards paul

Dear Herbert, It is true that I have heard of at least one example of a sword being bought on ebay which after polishing and submission to the NBTHK was awarded Juyo papers. So there is your treasure. Unfortunately this board is littered with countless examples of people who believed they were buying important swords but were ripped off. These examples out number the "important Sword" stories by many thousands to one. If you have been successful and have such an important sword then well done you. With regard to recommending a cheaper place to buy important swords it depends how you view value, if you are prepared to waste countless dollars in the hope that you hit the jackpot once then there is no better place. For those who prefer a safer approach there are a number of very reputable dealers that I would be far happier to spend my money with. I may not get a treasure at rock bottom price but at least I can have faith in what I am buying. Regards Paul

Herbert put a little more diplomatically If you truly believe there are numerous treasures to to be bought on Ebay good luck to you and enjoy yourself. However recommending it as the best way to buy swords is wrong, and on a board which is attempting to help guide beginners away from the many pitfalls of searching for treasures on Ebay is frankly irresponsible. regards Paul

Keith, I am not sure what in my mail suggested you were only interested in martial arts or used your antique blades fro practice. All I said is that unlike you I have no idea how to use a sword. I would regard that on a comment on my inability rather than anything about you. Unfortunately I cannot use langauge as a reason for misunderstanding but please be assured there was no negative comment on you, your actions, practices or otherwise was intended.

I am sure there are as many views on this as there are members here. However taking note of Ian's points I started to try and define what I think I am doing in pursuit of this subject. I do not believe swords (blades) are high art. I think they represent an outstanding example of form following function where the smiths have perfected their choice of material and manufacturing technique to make a supreme cutting weapon. As a result of this and as a bi-product of it they have created something that can be incredibly beautful. Interestingly and this purely a personal taste issue I think as manufacturing moved away from this ideal and smiths in the shinto period started producing showy hamons anf generally more loud forms, much of that original beauty was lost. As suggested by Ian's definition above I do not collect swords, I collect blades. This is not a deliberate choice it just happens that the blades I want tend to be in shirasaya. where a koshirae or part koshirae have come with the blade I have gratefully taken them and where necessary had them, I hope, sympathetically restored. I have only once assembled a koshirae from scratch . While using contemporary components it was not an attempt to recreate something that might have been it was completing a sword for a very specific reason. I have one other blade which I may also do this with but have yet to decide. Wheter we collect swords as art or artefact (unlike Keith I have absolutely no idea or desire to know how to use a sword so I must definitely fall in to the art side!) surely the important thing is that we use our best endeavours to preserve what is there. I am sure this is what the victorians in Ians story thought they were doing too, but we can only take decisions based on what is known to us today not what might be in the future. therefore we should minimise the impact of whatever action we decide to take concentrating on maintaining the piece rather than "enhancing" which will likely prove wrong in years to come

Chris, I likewise have bought my most expensive blades unseen. I did buy them from very highly regarded dealers who I knew by reputation but not personally. Whereas you consulted with Kenji Mishina I relied on the NBTHK papering system, so in reality our approach to buying at distance is not greatly different, we sought others opinions to support our own. There is always the chance that when buying this way the reality does not live up to the image, or simply once you have it in hand you dont like it. However buying in this way while carrying risks greatly increases the pieces available to the would be buyer. Clive, I am also proudly old fashioned (or so my colleagues continue to tell me) but in reality I could not have bought the swords I wanted in the UK nor could I fly halfway round the world at short notice to see them so I had to give in to the use of technology. (the returns policies of both dealers concerned helped that decision process considerably) Look forward to meeting you again in the near futre and we can discuss the merits of internet buying over a beer!

Morning Clive, I have heard this argument/suggestion before (maybe from you ) I think it surfaced recently with the formation of the new government body in Japan (sorry I have forgotten their name) who in their original plans were intending to offer a single type of paper which commented only on authenticity and not on relative quality. Again only from third hand comment as I wasnt party to any of the original discussion my understanding was that this proved less than popular especially and not surprisingly amongst the major dealers. Whether we choose to accept it or not this subject is commercially driven as is every other field in the antiques world. There will be those who devote their lives to the study, those who love the subject but for whatever reason cannot devote the time necessary and thus rely on the help of the afore mentioned experts. There will of course those who are only in it to make money, but they equally have their part to play in keeping the market healthy. Fine art if it isnt financially valued suffers and declines. It is the commercial value (in the main) that makes people take time and trouble to restore and maintain. The opening of the market as a result of internet sales has made papering more significant. While it is open to possble abuse and is imperfect I still beleive it offers buyers the ability to buy with greater confidence than they would otherwise. I confess that I would have been reluctant to buy some of my blades, even though I was buying from dealers I have total faith in, had they not been through this process. This has nothing to do with my ability or lack of ability to recognise quality it is a simple commercial point of view in that I beleive should I need to sell them on a papered piece is generally easier to sell. I also think that the various grades of paper contribute to that process positively. Best Regards Paul

Chris, I have no argument with the points you make. I have never bought a sword because it had papers or turned away from one I liked because it didn't. However I am equally sure that after 25 years of studying at distance I am still struggling to understand and often in over my head I have always and would always recommend buying from reputable dealers and in my time of buying I have never been cheated, mislead or anything else by those people. Where I have caught a cold is when I bought from individuals or from less honest or to be generous less knowledgable dealers. The down side is I never got a $100K sword for $100 equally I never paid $1000 for something worth $10. I think with a sword in hand I can see enough to decide whether I think the workmanship is good, the likely period and whether it suits my taste. Over the internet I think I can see most of these things but draw comfort from the fact they carry an NBTHK paper. If that means I am collecting beyond my skill level or out of my depth I guess I will just have to live with it as unfortunately I am no longer able to travel to Japan or the USA to see the blades first hand. regards Paul B ps picking up your point b) about buying things they dont fully understand, I would suggest the vast majority of buyers in any antique field are buying things because they can and because they believe it to have investment potential. regrettably those who have a love for a subject and some understanding of it rarely have the funds to buy at the top end.

Chris, I think the "collect papers not swords" point of view has become over simplified in recent years. There is a wealth of difference between those who state they "want a Juyo sword" regardless of school age or history and those that when buying a particular piece at distance want some security that it has achieved a certain level of authentication and recognition of its quality. I agree 100% with you that papers should not be used as a lazy substitute for study. I fail to understand how people profess to have a great love or interest in any subject but are then unwilling to put time and effort in to understanding that subject better. While there are often examples quoted of papers being wrong, or attributions changed on resubmission I believe the reality is that the papering system currently in existence offers the best opportunity to buy with reasonable security in the the current global market. It has greatly enhanced the ability to buy from all parts of the world and opened the market to a broader client base. As with anything else it is open to abuse and fraud and examples of fraudulent papers appear regularly. However while not perfect it is the best we have at present. Regards Paul

Chris, While agreeing with much that you say I think your views on papers express an ideal which is not seen in any art field. I would dearly love to think that fine paintings recently bought at auction in a Scottish sale will find their way to appreciative homes and will be cared for by thiose who value the work. They wont. Likewise with swords it would be wonderful to think that those buying the best blades they can afford would cherish them and care for them with the respect they deserve. However experience suggests this is not the case. I would bet an analysis of this or any other message board would show the most frequently asked questions are "Is it real?" and "whats it worth?" With regard to papers the importance and dependence has increased because the way we buy has changed. Many blades are effectively bought unseen via internet illustrations. While one can get an impression it isnt the same as holding a piece in hand. When spending large sums of money in this way their is some comfort in knowing the sword you are buying has had some form of authentication. I also agree with Mark, while I hope that I have some understanding of the quality of the swords within my collection at some point I will drop dead. If this happens before I have moved the swords on I would like the task to be as easy as possible for those left to deal with them. There is no doubt that papers will help. (BTW this is not something I plan to put to the test in the near future) With regard to the book which was the original subject of this post mt view remains much as it was in the first post on the subject and much in line with Guido's comments. It has a lot of valueable information but for me this is countered by some of the less orthodox opinions which seem to be expressed as statements of fact. I regard this as a weakness and having great potential to mislead. Best Regrads Paul

Hi Niclas, congratulations on receiving your first sword. You took a big gamble in jumping in on ebay, many have done the same and come off much worse. A couple of points which have come out of the discussion to date: 1. I tend to agree with Peter there looks to be a crack of some form between the hamachi and nakago proper. Being picky I am not sure this can be called an hagire as it is above the hamachi and therefore not in the ha. I am not sure if there is a specific term for it, also because of its postioning I would suggest (opinion not fact) that is less important than if it appeared in the cutting edge proper. 2. Franco makes the point through reference to Guido's excellent paper about always aiming for the best. This is something that we should all do attempting to improve and refine collections. However I think those who have been collecting for some time forget that we have to start somewhere. 25 years ago when I started my first piece was a considerably poorer example than the blade here. I think many older collectors would say the same. I was delighted to read your posts and pick up he excitement and enthusiasm from what you said. I wrote recently to a dealer telling him that 2 years after buying a sword from him I still get the same buzz every time I look at it. That I think is the true test. If it continues to excite/enthuse you in months to come it was a good buy. congratulations and good luck with future purchases (but please dont trust to luck so much and buy some books too!!) Best Regards paul

Hi Ford, I read the same piece last night and thought the opposite. While I can accept the logic of what he is saying regarding the mechanics involved, it is the fact that he suggests or implies that his theories apply the vast majority or in some cases all swords. Taking this point of view to a simplistic conclusion we can assume that a) All Yamato blades that are unsigned and have Yakatsume boshi are fakes that have had their Kissaki reshaped. b) The vast majority if not all of the O-suriage mumei National Treasure, Tokubetsu Juyo and Juyo pieces are also not what they claim to be. Interestingly I have spent a lot of time looking at an O-suriage Kamakura blade which doesn't show tiredness (according to Nakahara-san all Koto blades are tired) Has jifu Utsuri, according to the book this isnt a feature of manufacture and kantei point for Aoe or Ko-Bizen it is a result of tiredness and polishing technique. Incidently this blade has Juyo papers and more interestingly here a sayagaki from Hon'ami Kozon who this gentleman claims as his major influence. Hon'ami Kozon who not only agrees with the NBTHK attribution but goes further naming the smith. As I said there are a number of interesting and very beleiveable points in this work and for them alone it is valuable. However to me it has the impression of the work of someone who enjoys being controversial (is that why it appeals Ford? ) or someone who has an axe to grind with the establishment, however you define that. I repeat that my concern is that if people of little or no experience read this they can get a very confused or distorted view. I am sure much of what he says has value, equally I am sure some of his more blanket theories don't. As with most things the reality probably lies between the numerous possibilities discussed. Unfortunately with regard to some of his more radical claims there is no way with current technology to prove or disprove what he is saying.

I would be kneeling beside you. 75% of my swords including all that I regard as important ones are Mumei and suriage! I agree with you regarding shortenned blades but also have concerns about some of the views about Utsuri. But at least they make you look again

Thanks Jean, I feel a bit like a panel game "here is the answer try and guess the question" However reading the responses and subjects covered I think your questions are pretty much the same as my initial concerns. I think the key here is one of balance. As Paul said if it makes us look a little more critically then it will be a good result Regards Paul

those were the days. When I got my copy of Yumoto I thought I had gone to heaven!!!

Hi Carlo, I dont disagree with anything you say and certainly there is good information here as well as the more controversial points raised. I think my concern, and this may be my interpretation of what was being said here was that: a) These theories were more or less valid than those that had gone before, I assume simply because they were the newest and more importantly b) The implication/suggestion that if you only bought one book on the subject this would be the one to buy. This certainly has its place and I agree alongside Nagayama is a good place for it to sit. That offers some balance in view points as would Nihonto Koza. Regards Paul