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wakizashi gunto translation

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#1 ChrisW

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 01:16 AM

Hey guys,

 

I want your maximum scrutiny on this blade here. It is alleged Kyu Gunto, but the length of the blade and the apparent looseness of the nakago in the grip throw me off. It is firmly of wakizashi length at a mere 21.5 inches for the nagasa and with a sori of .25 inches. It is signed "Nobuyoshi" but that is the word of the seller. I believe the grip and blade itself are Japanese but with its slight looseness (which may be due to a poorly sized mekugi), there might be a possibility its a put together. It does have both rear and forward seppa. The scabbard does fit it well, but it is about four inches longer than the blade itself (though internally, it appears to fit tightly).

 

I suppose I am asking a few things:

 

 

Were Kyu Gunto of non-katana sizes (even at 21.5 inches)?

 

Do you think this is a put together?

 

What is the smith's name?

 

Whats the possible age range for this blade?

 

Thanks gents!

 

~Chris

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#2 Hamfish

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 04:25 AM

The term KYU Gunto doesn't present to a sword of a specific length.

But to type of military mounts it is inn. Lengths of you gunto can be from tachi to ko wakizashi.

The piece looks very honest, and complete. Still has 2 ashi and the gilt is 90%. From a ex IJM collector this looks like a great piece
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#3 NihontoCollector

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 05:29 AM

Signed Nobuyoshi. Koto. Probably Mid to late Muromachi.


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#4 NihontoCollector

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 05:36 AM


> The scabbard does fit it well, but it is about four inches longer than the blade itself (though internally, it appears to fit tightly).

 

That's good! Because if it was 4 inches shorter than the blade you would have to cut off part of the blades tip to make it fit ....

 

Yes it is a later set up by any means as these mounts were not available at the time the sword was made ... I have no reason to believe that these mounts had not been made for this blade in the 1st case. It is totally fine. The mounst ar ein good condition.

 

Wheter the signatur eis SHoshin I have no idea. Would need to look up which Bobuyoshi this one wants to be. If it wants to be an average Joe it is likely Shoshin. If it wants to be a big old Koto guy then you are mst likely looking at a fake. The Hamon and blade do not suggest anything pre Muromachi eventhough the tang looks worn.

 

The blade is good for what it is. Taking out the sigature question it is a solid piece which was probably priced accordingly. I suppose it came of komonjo? If Komonjo gives a name translation you can assume that his translation is accurate.

 

A blade of this size makes sense for this kind of mount as it is supposed to be swung with one hand.


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#5 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:48 AM

Both the sword and mounts are original in their own right. Whether or not they both belong to each other is an entirely different matter, the fact they come from Komonjo makes them somewhat suspect already. It looks like a good example though & if original a great addition to any collection.


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#6 ChrisW

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:55 PM

Yup Luis, you got the nail on the head. Komonjo did sell this to me. I know he does sell some spurious things, but this was something I felt relatively safe on. I still wanted to see what you guys thought of it and get some affirmations. The only issue I can spot with this blade is how relatively loose it sits in the mountings. I am guessing that the wood has shrunk with age or the mekugi is simply inadequate at tightening up the whole assembly.

 

As for Mike, I did email him about it and he was fine with taking a return. But I think I will keep it. I feel more confident on it. I did a lot more homework on it and after comparing it with other examples (a number of which were the same or sometimes shorter), I feel fine in keeping it. Mike also did tell me upfront that he consigns things and only inspects them to make sure the translations given are correct (as in literal) but that he does not inspect for gimei/fakes. So as the old phrase goes "caveat emptor."


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#7 NihontoCollector

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 01:29 AM

Hello Chris,

 

Mike is a honest vendor. He conseigns stuff and makes no false claims. He just turns things over and does not do any Koshirae building or mixing. If he sells a big name guy without paper he give the gurantee to happyly buy it beg when ruled Shoshin :)

 

In your very case I do not think that someone took a Kyu Gunto Koshirae and a seperate blade. Chances of the peg hole and Saya matching another blade would be very low.

 

Usually you can spot an assembled set up on how well the Habaki lines up with the Koiguchi.


Luis


#8 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 03:33 AM

Well Chris Kyu Gunto were very well made and finished from that era (Meiji), if it does not fit correctly I would be concerned, however if the movement is small then that is not unusual due to wood shrinkage and time. My Kyu Gunto fits up like a bank vault to this day with one Seppa.

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#9 Brian

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 01:28 PM

Hello Chris,

 

Mike is a honest vendor. He conseigns stuff and makes no false claims....

 

In Afrikaans we have a word for that sentence.
Kak.

Please don't bullsh!t us with the word honest. There is already waaaay too much proof on this forum that that is not true.
He may consign stuff and not care if it is correct, and he may not change anything himself. And he may stand behind what he sells. But he knows exactly what he is selling, the source, and what is not as it is presented. I don't like the general idea that buyers are responsible because they should know by now that what he sells is gimei or false or made elsewhere. That is not a valid argument.
No more debate on this.
 


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#10 ChrisW

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:01 PM

The gap between the forward seppa and the habaki is about one seppa's worth of thickness (a few millimeters) which could be due to the ill-fitting meguki or wood shrinkage? The mekugi doesn't even reach the other side of the hole in the grip and sits slightly off. So that may be why. It appears to be a fairly recent replacement mekugi. Not entirely sure. Appearance wise, everything is correct. Its just that gap that seems off.


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#11 Hamfish

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 12:03 AM

replacement meguki in military swords is very very common, they shrink, fallout or just fall apart. thats a easy fix.

 

the seppa in kyu gunto will normally alway appear in sets, rather then in odd numbers. but with posting a good photo its hard for us to say wood shrinkage, or miss placed seppa or worse.


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#12 ChrisW

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 12:24 AM

I'd have to also agree with Brian's statement on this one. I spoke with Mike. What he told me is that he consigns items from several sellers in Japan. He does not verify authenticity of anything, only that the translations given to him are literally correct. He does not check for gimei, shoshin, etc. So like most of eBay, this is a huge case of "caveat emptor." Mike is willing to do returns/refunds which is one redeeming thing about him as a seller. However, I've been able to spot many blatant fakes: looking at that supposed 1929 dated katana made from the gun barrel of the Yamato.. :laughing: or the obvious modern productions of "Gendaitos".

 

However, I do wish he'd come here and check stuff with the NMB for authenticity or at least 'likely to be so.' This would probably alleviate many concerns if he'd simply say in each listing "probable gimei" or "probably replica/fake."

 

But being that he runs a business and that bottom line is what he chases, he won't likely ever do so. So again, if you buy from eBay, you have to be certain or have an out... or be okay with getting burned occasionally. I'd love to hear some of the veteran IJA collector's opinions of this piece though too. Even if its a put together, the blade/parts are worth more than I paid for ($1050usd) or at least I believe so. (I am alright with sharing what I paid right? If not, please feel free to censor this part.)


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#13 NihontoCollector

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 12:48 AM

In Afrikaans we have a word for that sentence.
Kak.

Please don't bullsh!t us with the word honest. There is already waaaay too much proof on this forum that that is not true.
He may consign stuff and not care if it is correct, and he may not change anything himself. And he may stand behind what he sells. But he knows exactly what he is selling, the source, and what is not as it is presented. I don't like the general idea that buyers are responsible because they should know by now that what he sells is gimei or false or made elsewhere. That is not a valid argument.
No more debate on this.
 

 

220px-Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_st


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#14 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:10 AM

Chris, that’s a good price. I’d love to have one of these, but they’re hard to find under $1,000.

#15 NihontoCollector

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:34 AM

@ Bruce: Just keep on checking Komonjos listings ;)


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#16 ChrisW

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 07:22 AM

Eh.. just be careful. I got lucky this time I think. But he's got some shady stuff he consigns. I'd hate for someone to get burned just because I got lucky and they feel emboldened.


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#17 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 08:36 AM

A man selling a donkey as a horse is now considered honest?


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#18 NihontoCollector

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 02:41 PM

@ John: Do you have a link to th Donkey auction?

 

@ Chris: Maybe you feel lucky.

 

As far as I am concerned I can only say that I always got delivered by Komonjo what I bought.

 

One can regard Nihonto as a Gamble and then he has to be prepared to loose and to win. Or you can regard Nihonto a study journey so you ought to lear along its way.

 

For all those who speal bad of Komonj like Brianm et all ... Which blades did you buy from Komnjo tahty ou did not feel happy about? If you were not happy about your purchases what did Komonjo do? Or ist it you never bought from him and do actually not have any skin in the game? I


Luis


#19 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:43 PM

Luis,

To continue this discussion, we are hijacking Chis's thread about his great kyugunto.

Simply type Komonjo (or Showa22 or Samuraimonkey42) in the search window at the top and you will get several examples of very questionable, to outright fakery from these sellers. Yes, each of them have been known to sell the real thing too. That's what makes it more difficult for the buyer. But this discussion is going off topic and could be held on it's own thread.

#20 ChrisW

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 06:57 PM

I am sure Brian would not be happy about where this thread is going. Let's consider this thread finished unless any more IJA collectors have an opinion to share on this blade. I have more or less found a consensus that this particular one is likely as it appears.


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#21 NihontoCollector

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 07:15 PM

@ Bruce: I agree with you that this thread is about a blade in great Kyu Gunto mounts that was picked up at less than the polish alone would cost. So for waht it is worth, this has been a good in terms of bang for the buck purchase. I am yet to see where Komonjo is misrepresenting items or making fraudulent deals. Until then I just think it is not fair to call him a dishonest seller and I doubt he would have been able to maintain such a good feedbackscore and to stay on the scene if he was. Of course there is junk among his sales those listings are likewise entitked s junk blades or koshirae. I think this more than blantly honest. If Komonjo puts on a blade signed Masamune without papers what should one expect? What other option is there than outting it on eBay. Melting it into a thamagen bar because it is Gimei?

 

SO to put this to and end: Congrats on your Kyu Gunto Chris


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#22 ChrisW

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 07:30 PM

Not to hijack my own thread, but to speak to how: its very simple. eBay policies ferociously protect sellers and their reputation scores. Sellers can easily petition eBay to have any neutral and negative feedback stricken from the record including scenarios where: the buyer returned the item, the sale was cancelled, or the seller did not outright contradict their listing information. As anyone who has ever bought on eBay can tell you, its very easy to get burned. Last month I got burned by the infamous UPS false tracking scam and both eBay and PayPal did nothing simply because according to what UPS said, it was delivered to the address stated to them (but UPS refused to tell me what address that was, even though I was the recipient). Naturally I gave negative feedback on this, but the seller denied, and since I could do nothing to prove it other than hold out my empty hands, eBay took off the negative feedback. The only consolation in that case was that it was for a small claims about of about $50 (bar of copper). eBay is outright crap at protecting buyers, they only care about seller protections since that is where they get their buck. As always "caveat emptor."

 

http://www.ecommerce...1430855475.html

 

 

Now PLEASE, let's consider this thread over unless IJA collectors have an opinion on this blade.


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#23 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:18 AM

@ John: Do you have a link to th Donkey auction?

 

@ Chris: Maybe you feel lucky.

 

As far as I am concerned I can only say that I always got delivered by Komonjo what I bought.

 

One can regard Nihonto as a Gamble and then he has to be prepared to loose and to win. Or you can regard Nihonto a study journey so you ought to lear along its way.

 

For all those who speal bad of Komonj like Brianm et all ... Which blades did you buy from Komnjo tahty ou did not feel happy about? If you were not happy about your purchases what did Komonjo do? Or ist it you never bought from him and do actually not have any skin in the game? I

Here you go Luis, a whole stable of horses for the discerning customer: https://www.ebay.com...=1&_ipg=&_from=


John


#24 NihontoCollector

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:25 AM

John, I agree. Especially the many with recent Tokubetso Hozon papers! Your really convinced me. NOT


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#25 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:28 AM

The papered swords represent 1-2% of the listings. I'm not sure how much Komonjo is paying you but you're not convincing any of us he's a saint in wolves clothing!


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#26 NihontoCollector

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:36 AM

There are 23 Swords total in the link which you pointed me to. 23 of which 3 do have recent papers. This equals 13% ... so you may want to look into your calculation again . You said it is 1 - 2%.

 

Where did I say he is a saint? Also what sword did you buy from him that you can comment on? If it is that you never bought anything from him then what expirience are you refering to?

 

As of know I can tell two people in this topic who have actually bought swords from this seller. One being me and the other one being Chris. Also the others do not seem to have any skin in this game.

 

Out of the 23 blades you used as an argument / example please kindly be a bit more precise as to which one is misrepresented by komonjo and what way?

 

Maybe I am just missing something in these blades and their description. So please kindly enlighten me, I am always eager to learn.


Luis


#27 NihontoCollector

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:45 AM

Here are the links to the swords:

 

https://www.ebay.com...CM/132986998630
https://www.ebay.com...ya/143165496979
https://www.ebay.com...irasaya/1635943
https://www.ebay.com...ya/143169839160
https://www.ebay.com...CM/163594350739
https://www.ebay.com...CM/163594374863
https://www.ebay.com...ae/132986973128
https://www.ebay.com...ae/163594390757
https://www.ebay.com...CM/163586860762
https://www.ebay.com...ya/143169274536
https://www.ebay.com...ki/132981285107
https://www.ebay.com...ae/143169244582
https://www.ebay.com...CM/163588922177
https://www.ebay.com...CM/132982891352
https://www.ebay.com...CM/163586688102
https://www.ebay.com...ae/163594350100
https://www.ebay.com...ki/143158914657
https://www.ebay.com...ae/132976286484
https://www.ebay.com...CM/163573421273
https://www.ebay.com...ae/132979274522
https://www.ebay.com...ae/132979271050
https://www.ebay.com...CM/143162301789
 

Please go ahead and point out which one of the swords is misrepresented or fraudulent. I am listening ,eager to learn from you.

 

Furthermore John please provide proof that komonjo is paying me for my posts - or  if you can not then shout me an appology.


Luis


#28 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:32 AM

Luis please search "Komonjo" on this forum, you will see many topics and threads about 100% fakes and frauds listed in the past, I must say that most of the swords you listed seem ok and are papered, however majority of the time I look at his listings (regularly) I see many CHINESE MADE FAKES listed as Nihonto/Gendai or clear Gimei of Masamune, Muramasa, Norishige etc etc with fake Kinpun Mei, fake Mei and fake Sayagaki.

 

As for an apology, that is not forthcoming, I don't understand how a longterm member & collector here can clearly sanction this seller of fakes and Gimei, let alone defend him when there is so much previous evidence of his misdeeds. 


John


#29 NihontoCollector

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:58 AM

Okay John ... for the record: You keep on accusing me of being a bribed liar without any proof. Thank you.

 

Furthermore You give me 23 swords meant to prove that Komonjo is a bad seller - some of these swords have TBH papers. Uppong repeated asking you to point out the problems you fail to provide your comments on a single piece of them but keep up your  accusations.

 

So selling a Gimei sword is a misdeed? Interesting. I am to be guilty then as most other collectors are. What is your suggestion? Melt the sword into an iron bar for being Gimei? Remove a Gimei at approx USD 500 on a blade that gets sold at a fraction of this? You mention clear Gimeis of Masamune to be sold by Komonjo. Can't a blade be any clearer and obvious be Gimei than a Masamune? The question is wheter Komonjo claimed this Masamune, Norishige or whatever to be Shoshin? If yes provide the link. I am dying to see it. If he did that he is a bad guy. Otherwise while you point the finger at him, don't forget that four fingers of your hand will point at yourself.

 

Why I defend him being a long time collector? You just gave the answer to your question yourself. Because I am a longterm collector.  I have gotten some of the best deals from him buying good swords at very low cost. Sometimes below cost of restoration. So if I was bad guy I would put him down like others do in order to drive potential buyers / bidders away. But I try to remain balanced without bias. Komonjo offers some of the worst junk to be found - and describe it himself as JUNK. He will sometimes sell very fine blade and not exagerrate at all but just limit himself to describing the condition.

 

I always got what I paid for and in most cases it was like expected or better. If someones buys a blade signed Masamune from him at a low cost and are disappointed that you didn't hit the big one ... well ... hmmm ...


Luis


#30 NihontoCollector

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 11:47 AM

I have to add something to make my point clear on dealing / dealers: I believe that in the end you ought to get what you buy / paid for and you buy according to your budget and knowledge. If I buy a blade from Darcy I would expect to get 99,9% of the time a great sword as he deals only in the very best swords. If I buy something from AOI Art I may find a very good sword going up to TB Juyo - like some of the swords he sold did ... or I may end up finding a less decent sword. If I buy a cheap sword at Komonjo my expectations should be less sophisticated.  Buying to ones budget. Then I think I may be smart, smarter then the dealer and picking up an unpapered sword at Gimei price getting a Shoshin. Could be. Could also be someone sells me 10 bucks at a cheap 5 bucks. If it is too good to be true tehn it is not. It is me making the deicison and buying according to my budget and knowledge. If I loose out on a sword it is hence me to bl,de and not the dealer. One has to understand that most dealers conseign items. Their job is to sell and turn the items around for what they are - the collectors task is to make up his mind on what he likes and to form an evaluation on what he is looking at. There are good sworsd and less good swords availanle everywhere. It is not the sword to be blamed for being bad but onself for buying it / making a bad purchase unless the item has been misrepresented. If you came to the conclusion it is a bad sword stay away. That is why one has to study. Expirience is an euphemism for failure ;)


Luis






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