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Sukashi Tsuba, Ko-Tosho?

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#1 Nikanoru

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:21 PM

Hi Gents!

 

I'm addressing to all the Gurus on the board! :)

 

Can anyone tell something specific re the attached tsuba? Besides the evident things like iron, sukashi, two hitsu-ana, udenuki-ana, kin fukurin, otafuku-gata.

 

Does it look like a sunset on a lake, clouds above, water below, setting sun in the middle, or it's just my sick imagination? :)

 

What is this comma-shaped thing then, Fuji-san outlines above everything?

 

It's my friend's. He is too old to use computers and said he always wanted to learn more about this one.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Cheers,

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#2 Kurikata

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:00 PM

Alex , this tsuba looks very similar to this one : https://www.aoijapan...oud-moon-design
Bruno P.

#3 ROKUJURO

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:30 PM

Alex,

the design may be TOMOE (Comma shape), mist/clouds, and water.

It is certainly not a TOSHO or even KO-TOSHO, but I think it is a modern TSUBA, independent from a school.


Regards,

Jean C.

#4 seattle1

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:09 AM

Hello:

 Great question. I agree with Jean that it might be a tomoe, but why so large as to structurally weaken the tsuba if it is an older and functional piece? I am tempted to say it is some artist's fancy expressed on the plate. If it is an older piece, then after its initial making; if a newer piece then that design from the start. I am not sure however that it is modern as why have that accommodation space on the right where a shakudo insert (now lost?) would have been put in to protect the back of a kogai? That adds nothing to the picture and is a negative distraction, but again it could be just a subtle way to make it look older. Beats me.

 Arnold F.



#5 dominnimod

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:12 AM

A revival piece?


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#6 rkg

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 04:07 AM

I'd guess (very) late edo or newly made.

rkg

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#7 Curran

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 04:59 AM

With hesitation:      I was asked about the Aoi Art tsuba this morning and felt it was a ko-kat modified in Momoyama or early Edo. Rich Turner had a similar one, that was papered as to the time of the modification- not the time and attribution of the original tsuba.

 

I also wondered about the punch numbers on the paper. They are center a bit, with the last digit missing or hidden by the large photo. Also, it is written on the paper that the date given for the paper is March- which is a blade shinsa month. I found it odd enough that I went through 25 NBTHK H and TH papers to see if I had any dated 'in March'. None had the punch dated strayed like that.  No March ones came up, so I'm left wondering if it is simply administrative lag and a bit of sloppiness. TH shinsa happening after H, therefore maybe it does drift into the next month and someone dates accordingly?


Michin nom Curran


#8 FlorianB

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:16 AM

Hello,

defintiveley not an very old one.

The motif is what Jean wrote and You can consider if the two dots at the bottom are udenuki-ana.

The otafuku-gata-shape hint to Edo period. The tomoe is adapted to the shape - this is a later design attitude, too. The large halfcircled hitsu-ana can be found on later Edo period examples (Higo and others).

The surface looks old with it’s rough structure - however it looks too perfect to be a result of rusting over the centuries. It’s artificial done by chiseling. As I said before on this board there are Tsuba from 18th/19th century so cleverly done You think they’re very old at the first glance.

Finally, though I’m not able to sort out the school the combination of styles and motif elements hint IMHO to late Edo (18th century at the earliest).

Florian



#9 Nikanoru

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:02 PM

Thanks, Gents! Much appreciated!

Though the old man won't like it  :)

Cheers,



#10 Timur

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:28 AM

I also wondered about the punch numbers on the paper. They are center a bit, with the last digit missing or hidden by the large photo. Also, it is written on the paper that the date given for the paper is March- which is a blade shinsa month. I found it odd enough that I went through 25 NBTHK H and TH papers to see if I had any dated 'in March'. None had the punch dated strayed like that.  No March ones came up, so I'm left wondering if it is simply administrative lag and a bit of sloppiness. TH shinsa happening after H, therefore maybe it does drift into the next month and someone dates accordingly?

Curran, sharp eye and interesting viewing angle!

I looked through all mine. 28th of February - the latest. No March in "punched dates", though there is one kozuka having the papers issued on the 28th of March in 1986. 

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Valery

#11 Curran

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 01:30 AM

Hi Valery,

 

Thank you. That was useful to have another example. My sample size of 25 was too small, but that is all the modern era kodogu papers I have here.

Unless they had March kodogu shinsa back then, it seems more likely just an administrative backlog of Febraury (28 days short) into March.

 

Curran


Michin nom Curran


#12 Timur

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:25 PM

Curran, I think the puzzle is solved. The missing last number in the punched date on the Aoi origami is 2 not. 3. So the shinsa was on February 27th and the date in the papers is March the 04th. I was surprised that they never coincide.  

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Valery

#13 Pete Klein

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 01:29 PM

Hi -- the dates do not coincide because those are the document preparation dates.  The punch date is when the paper is put together and the written date is when the paper is filled out in ink which is either toward the end of the shinsa month (starts first weekend of the month) but can and often does go into the following month.  They can be dealing with a thousand or more items so all of this has to be done in order and takes a lot of time.  If a number of high attendance shinsas occur there can be further delays due to backlog.  This is why sometimes it takes longer for the results.  The items are available for pick-up prior to the paper being available due to this preparation time.  The paper is generally posted to the party responsible for the submission. 

 

The shinsa panels are comprised of NBTHK employee experts and also experts who attend who are not full time employees therefore it is important to get the actual 'shinsa' done and then follow up with the documentation which can be done at a later date by staff.

 

I believe the overlap on the Ko Kat paper is simply because of the size of the picture.  You can still see the number for the rear with paper in hand.


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