waki goto(?) menuki

[Tcat]

Hello all,

 

I recently acquired these shishi menuki from Aoi. I would like to know what school they are - I guess waki goto; they are unsigned.

 

Could anyone comment?

 

They are quite small, each around 1 x0.5 inches, but the carving is really great. I have been looking at them with the aid of a magnifying glass and have marveled at the detail. Aoi did not mention a school, just said they were Edo period and over 300 years old. Comments / opinions?

 

Regards

 

[Pete Klein]

We need to see the back sides also.

[nagamaki - Franco]

We need to see the back sides also.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/fittings/menuki/F10470.html

[Tcat]

Thanks Franco, yes, it's that link.

[Brian]

Those are really quite charming, and a very unusual pose. You better get those from held to sold soon :lol:

Tosogu guys, any particular reason or kantei point looking at the fact that one has a round post and the other more conventional?

The carving is indeed well done. I suspect these are a good deal.

 

Brian

[Tcat]

Those are really quite charming, and a very unusual pose. You better get those from held to sold soon :lol:

Brian

 

Brian, they are held - in my grubby little mits as we 'speak'. I certainly think they were a good deal.

 

I was also wondering about the significance of one round post and one rectangular... any comments would be much appreciated.

[Akitombo]

Hi

Here is a Shishi menuki in gold

The reson for the two different posts is more to do with them coming adrift from the body and being replaced with whatever the repairer has, who looks at the reverse of a menuki?

Regards

David

[Tcat]

The reverse:

[raaay]

Hi Alex

 

i can't add much to your request are they are Goto menuki etc, but i'm sure from memory that the rule of thumb is

the shishi with the open mouth is the female of the pair, no pun intended

 

nice menuki,

 

Ray

[nagamaki - Franco]

Quality of the detail and the quality of the shakudo leave me more inclined to think Goto copies rather than one of the recognized waki Goto schools. Saying waki Goto seems to me an easy way out for people selling fittings. Study mainline work so that you develop an eye for standards from which to measure and judge by.

[Ron STL]

The three round curls of hair on the tails I believe help point this work to a school...but which one escapes me at the moment...Somin or maybe Yoshioka???

 

Ron H.

[Soshin]

Quality of the detail and the quality of the shakudo leave me more inclined to think Goto copies rather than one of the recognized waki Goto schools. Saying waki Goto seems to me an easy way out for people selling fittings. Study mainline work so that you develop an eye for standards from which to measure and judge by.

 

Hi Alex,

 

I would agree with Franco on this. To me the menuki look likely the work of the Kyo-Kinko group done in a Goto like style circa mid Edo Period. The Kyo-Kinko group is famous for these type of copies and they are always mumei. Overall they are nice set of menuki at a reasonable price from Japan.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Tcat]

Many thanks to all for the comments, most informative.

 

David (Akitombo) thanks for the gold example, looks very nice.

 

Raay - thanks for that. Now I can properly sex dragons and shishi... Does anyone know how to sex Kirin??

 

Franco, what is it from these photos that gives you an impression of the quality of the Shakudo?

It is the colour or something else? I guessed waki goto because I know very little, they just looked good and reminded me of goto work without looking mainline goto. I am still very impressed with the carving considering how small they are. The canine tooth of the female is no larger than a hair clipping.

 

Ron H, thanks for the tip, I will try to read up on Somin and Yoshioka.

 

David S, thank you. Is there anything you can mention about the carving or work specifically which makes you think of edo kinko?

 

Regards

[nagamaki - Franco]

what is it from these photos that gives you an impression of the quality of the Shakudo?

 

color, a substantially lighter shade of black by comparison combined with the workmanship that is revealed on the back side.

[Tcat]

Informative! And I guess that's why people look at the back of menuki...

Thanks.

[Soshin]

Many thanks to all for the comments, most informative.

 

David S, thank you. Is there anything you can mention about the carving or work specifically which makes you think of edo kinko?

 

Regards

 

Hi Alex,

 

I think you are mixing up terms or I am unclear. These menuki in my opinion are Kyo-Kinko from Kyoto circa the mid Edo Period. The good quality but not at level of mainline or waki Goto and the fact the motif of shishi is a common theme to the Edo based Goto school points in this direction. As well as how the takabori technique is excuted in a Goto like style. It is documented that Kyo-Kinko group often made good quality copies of Goto designs during the mid Edo Period all of which were unsigned.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Tcat]

Hi All,

 

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I had some pics I wanted to add for reference. These were difficult to take, poor quality images attesting, but still show more detail than the scans, I feel.

Quite a surprise to me was just how difficult these are to capture..they are minute and a challenge for the old camera phone Amazing for me is how different the facial expressions appear with just a slight difference in angle and lighting.

 

 

Sorry David, I meant to say "Edo period kyo-kinko".

 

Regards,

[Curran]

Debatable that they be Waki Goto or Kyo Goto.

See Peter Klein's excellent post:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15350&p=134790&hilit=goto#p134790

 

Here, slightly funky off-beat Goto style trying to convey more motion or dynamics that the normal goto menuki.

There are a lot of rendering similarities between mine and yours. Thus, I say you may have been able to grab a pair of Kyo Goto menuki cheap. Might get the Kyo Kinko attribution instead.

Better to get a second opinion, as people like Peter K. know Goto better than I do.

 

Sorry in that I don't have any photos of them. Will try to take some if possible.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Interesting, these new set of pics have me second guessing whether they are a shibuichi or as originally thought, shakudo. Still, would look toward schools other than Goto.

[Tcat]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the follow up!

 

Franco, Aoi Art said these are shakudo plate...

 

I forgot to include measurements before:

 

Length 1 : 2.57 cm x 1.51 cm (1.01 inches x 0.59 inches)

Length 2 : 2.73 cm x 1.23 cm (1.07 inches x 0.48 inches)

 

The consensus seems to be that these are not Goto work, but this doesn't change how I feel about them :D

 

Regards,

[Soshin]

The consensus seems to be that these are not Goto work, but this doesn't change how I feel about them :D

Hi,

 

As it shouldn't. The Goto school was not the only school producing good quality kinko tosogu in the Edo Period.

 

P.S. I like your set of menuki.

[Curran]

Again, Peter Klein's well done hierarchy:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15350&p=134790&hilit=goto#p134790

 

Photos attached of my NBTHK Hozon set

papered to Kyo Goto, aka Waki Goto. 脇後藤

 

Compare/contrast with ThunderCat's set.

The rendering of teeth, claws, hair, fur, eyes, double spinal ridges along the back, etc.

[Tcat]

Curran,

Thanks very much for your reply and the great pictures. Dare I ask as Pete K did earlier in this thread...can we see the backs?

 

To my naive eye a lot of resemblance in the rendering, right down to the detailing of the paws. I wish I could get a sharper photo like yours. Is there enough similarity between the two sets to assume that they could be from the same school...

 

Here, slightly funky off-beat Goto style trying to convey more motion or dynamics that the normal goto menuki.

This is exactly what interested me about them...I thought they were a little out there, but nicely done.

 

I enclose one more image..