Arsenal Stamps.

[Stephen]

By jove your right its tail is wagging in the other direction!

[BANGBANGSAN]

Looks like ku for 9

Not 九，it's 力

[BANGBANGSAN]

Trystan,

 

Do you have the smith name on that blade? I have in my files another kai with the identical styled Toyokawa stamp and it, too, has a kanji stamped below the arsenal stamp. It is the first kanji of the smith that made it. Could this be what we are seeing on yours?

Bruce

This is NOT my sword,and I don't think it has signature on the tang.Give another thought,力 means Power，you can see that kanji on some flag and sennienbari.

Trystan

[BANGBANGSAN]

Bruce

found a 松 mark on Gunto Tang.It's in the Stamp chart.

viii. ‘Matsu’ stamp found associated with tang batch or issue numbers. Significance unknown.

Appears limited to blades (both signed and unsigned) found in 1944 pattern Army mounts.

Rare.

I saw this mark on some Type 30 bayonet.I think maybe it's from 松下電器 NATIONAL DENKI under TOKYO KOKURA ARSENAL's inspect.

[Kiipu]

Encircled 松 matsu

This marking has come up several times in this forum.  A hurried search yielded the following.

 

Survey of Gunto contract numbers.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/8546-survey-of-gunto-contract-numbers/

 

Assistance Needed With Mei.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/24992-assistance-needed-with-mei/

 

Arsenal Stamps.  松11.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5999-arsenal-stamps/page-1?do=findComment&comment=57724

 

Arsenal Stamps.  松61.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5999-arsenal-stamps/page-1?do=findComment&comment=57754

 

Arsenal Stamps.  松97.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5999-arsenal-stamps/page-14?do=findComment&comment=304770

 

My 1942 Munetoshi.  松443.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21367-my-1942-munetoshi/

Edited October 8, 2019 by Thomas

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is an example of the very curious "Matsu" stamp. It is a very rarely encountered mark, and its origin and purpose seems to be unknown. The pictured gendaito with this mark is a very nicely hand forged work by Munetoshi, who also signed Hidemune. He was a student of Kasama Shigetsugu. Other oshigata I have seen did not display this "matsu" mark, so it is inconsistently found on his works. My speculation is that this is an identifying mark for a particular shop or broker who may have ordered the blade on behalf of an officer. The mark is documented in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 by Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory. It is noted in this book that blades found with this mark were mounted in late 1944 Shingunto koshirae. This blade is indeed mounted consistantly.

 

That's a good one Ted! Seems to be by the same smith or factory. Might even be the guys George Trotter has been following.

 

[Kiipu]

Two KaiGunto for review

#sword 2 - Double ashi

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29929-two-kaigunto-for-review/

The second sword has a Toyokawa Naval Arsenal 豊川海軍工廠 logo.  Toyokawa Naval Arsenal was officially opened in December 1939. On 1945-08-07, the arsenal was bombed and a week later all production came to an end with the surrender.  The reason for posting is that I have been unable to locate this stamp in this thread.

Edit: Looking at the stamp with a magnifying glass, it appears to be a Tenshozan stamp.

 

There is another anchor mark but it has a different meaning and the discussion can be found in the War Relics thread below.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/f216/showa-dept-interior-stamp-662590-post1693771/#post1693771

 

As to the origins for the mark, I understood that there were many cases of such mass produced blades snapping in the freezing cold weather of Manchuria. So the people in Seki decided to do voluntary impact testing on their products to ensure quality on blades for use by the military. They stamped blades that passed this test initially with the Kanji for Seki 関, signifying the guild. But later, one of the army arsenal factories happened to adopt the same kanji for marking, so the Seki people deferred and changed their impact test mark to the 昭 in cherry blossom mark for army orders and an anchor mark for navy orders. Anyway, that was what I took out from other sites.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thomas,

 

That reference to an anchor stamp is a mystery to me too. The only ones I know of are referenced in Fuller & Gregory's book, and can be seen in his chart:

[Bruce Pennington]

Has anyone got the link to an Ohmura page where he was discussing the Seki Guild moving from the "Seki" stamp to the "Sho" stamp? I was reading it recently and now can't find the page!

 

It was his contention that the Seki Guild was originally using the Seki stamp until it became an inspector stamp at Nagoya Arsenal. So they began using the Sho. If correct, this tells us who was using the Showa stamp - Seki smiths!

 

I believe they stopped when the Kokura arsenal stopped administering both Tokyo and Nagoya. As Nagoya began stamping their own arsenal work, I think the Seki smiths started using regional stamps like the Gifu and Fuku stamps. The timing seems to coincide when the Showa and Kokura stamps ceased. I just need to start checking dates on Gifu and Fuku stamps blades to see if they were '42 and later.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Bruce

I’m not sure if this page is waht you looking for

http://ohmura-study.net/794.html#4

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce

I’m not sure if this page is waht you looking for

http://ohmura-study.net/794.html#4

No, it was only in Japanese (Google translated it for me), and began at in the first paragraph talking about the Seki stamp change.

[Kiipu]

No, it was only in Japanese (Google translated it for me), and began at in the first paragraph talking about the Seki stamp change.

 

関・軍 用 日 本 刀 　Syōwa-tō of Seki

http://ohmura-study.net/211.html

[Bruce Pennington]

関・軍 用 日 本 刀 　Syōwa-tō of Seki

http://ohmura-study.net/211.html

Thomas, thanks! That's actually another page than what I had read, but this one has more detail. The other one says the Seki Guild "adopted" the Sho when the Nagoya arsenal started using the Seki stamp, making it sound like the Guild invented the stamp. Your page shows the Showa stamp came to be used at the order of the Interior Ministry. Of course, it might have come at the request of the Seki Guild and simply made official by the Ministry. This would make both pages in agreement.

 

This page dates the change to 1939. The english paragraphs don't completely tell the full story depicted in the Japanese ones, and the google translate is horrible, but I think it mentions the Showa stamp really didn't show up until 1940 in actual use, which fits what everyone else is saying.

 

What I'd like to gather is dates on blades with Gifu and other regional stamps to see if they fall in sequence AFTER the Showa stamp was no longer being used.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Bruce

Here is one rare arsenal mark for you.It's on a Navy Type 30 bayonet,some says it maybe made in Toyokawa Naval Arsenal (豊川海軍工廠) or Yokosuka Naval Arsenal (横須賀海軍工廠).

 

 

[IJASWORDS]

Hey Bruce, got this Kai Gunto with three stamps on the seppa, any ideas, especially on the T.E.C. stamp. 

[IJASWORDS]

Should have added that the stamps are visible on the outside of the seppa. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Fuller said both of these are seen on bayonettes and sword fittings but not seen on nakago, and are of the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal. Thanks for the great examples. I'll fit them into the Stamps doc.

 

I haven't found any thing that identifies the T.E.C. markings. May be pure coincidence, but seem interesting that something starting in "T" is on Toyokawa marked items.

[Bruce Pennington]

Small update on Toyokawa Arsenal blades with a second stamp:

 

We now have 3 (thanks to Thomas!) blades made by "Inaba" with the same kanji stamped below the Toyokawa stamp. It is the first kanji of the name.

 

Now we have a Toyokawa stamped blade with a "Ko" below the anchor stamp. Unfortunately, the blade is mumei.

 

If anyone finds more like this, I'd like to see them, thanks!

 

[Kiipu]

Inspection mark used by private companies under army supervision.  Used during the 1941 to 1945 timeframe.  The character 社 translates as firm, company, or office.

社 = SHA

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5999-arsenal-stamps/page-9?do=findComment&comment=198986

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28567-sha-stamp-significance/

Edited October 23, 2019 by Thomas

[Bruce Pennington]

Inspection mark used by private companies under army supervision.  Used during the 1941 to 1945 timeframe.  The character 社 translates as firm, company, or office.

社 = SHA

 

Yes, lacking any other info on this one I'm guessing its a company inspector stamp - "company" - of the koshirae maker.

[Kiipu]

Yes, lacking any other info on this one I'm guessing its a company inspector stamp - "company" - of the koshirae maker.

 

The 社 or 社 [sHA] was an Imperial Japanese Army inspection stamp for use by each civilian/private factory 各民間工場.  Any private factory working on army contracts could use this inspection stamp.  Either the old style or the new style character can be found stamped on parts. 

社 = 社

Edited October 26, 2019 by Thomas

[Bruce Pennington]

Thank you, again, Thomas! I've moved the stamp out of the "Unknowns" category.

[Bruce Pennington]

Latest update, 4.1, on the Stamps Document. Been making some big headway with the research guys like Thomas have been handing us. Latest version is updated on the Kobe and Mizuno Type 95 stamps, as well as the just discussed Company stamp. Might be some cosmetic streamlining as well.

 

Thanks to all who have been keeping this going!

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another unknown, found on a Kyu Gunto with what appears to be a traditional blade. Maddeningly I remember seeing another one a few days ago that I cannot find now.

 

ebay link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/KYUGUNTO-RUSSO-Japanese-OFFICERS-SAMURAI-SWORD-WITH-SCABBARD-GROOVED-BLADE-N46/401933298387?hash=item5d95176ad3:g:TukAAOSwZTldsb4~

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is a more clear picture of that one. Hopefully someone will be able to translate!

 

[Kiipu]

Another stamp example for the archives. I acquired a very nice Kongohyoe Minamoto Moritaka this past weekend. On the mune are two KUMA stamps. This is also the first Moritaka I have seen which did not include a kao. Photo below...

 

- Ray

 

A Japanese army inspection mark used by the Kumamoto Supervisory Unit 熊本監督班 of Kokura Army Arsenal 小倉陸軍造兵廠.

熊 = kuma

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5999-arsenal-stamps/page-4?do=findComment&comment=85298

[Bruce Pennington]

Thomas,

 

It's tempting, but I just don't see it. See comparison below. I have a vague memory of an older Japanese wrtiting style (started with an S, I think) that was often used on older blades. Might have been religious based. I think this writing is of that style.

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

I rotate the second marke, it kind of look like 弘道 ，but I'm not very certain.There is a Showa smith name 丹羽弘道 Niwa Hiromichi though。

Or,from right to left could be 直弘，one Showa smith name 柳川直弘 Yanagawa Naohiro...

let's see what Thomas think about this mark.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yes, this is the stamp of Naohiro:

 

http://www.militaria...l-stamps/page-6

 

http://www.militaria.../16356-showato/

 

And Chris Bowen writes:

Quote

 

Someone recently pointed this out to me...

Stamp is indeed double struck. It is the smith's name: Naohiro. Remember, Japanese is read right to left traditionally.

直弘

Family name is Yanagawa. From Saitama.

大慶直胤--直弘[初代]（土野留助）--直弘[二代]（柳川才次郎）--直弘[三代]（柳川昌喜）-- 直弘[四代]（松原英一）（埼玉県大宮在住）

This is most likely the work of the second generation. During the Meiji and Taisho periods, he worked at the army arsenal in Tokyo making blades for sabres and other western style swords. He also made razors and the like. I have seen this stamp before on a razor as I recall....

[BANGBANGSAN]

Yes, this is the stamp of Naohiro:

 

http://www.militaria...l-stamps/page-6

 

http://www.militaria.../16356-showato/

 

And Chris Bowen writes:

Quote

Thanks John for clear that.