tsuba ID challenge

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

An inlay design to add to your group of images - the birds face right and left "outward" to the rim....

Yes Dale,

I think so, too. But the pictured birds are probably not KARIGANE but CHIDORI?

[Spartancrest]

 

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

KARIGANE but CHIDORI

What type of bird is this supposed to be?  I don't know of any that look like this in reality.

[Brian]

Actually, I really love that depiction of birds..likely geese. It is so "modern" that the depiction that way can only come from a nation that sees images depicted in bonji.
A very futuristic depiction of a bird seen through an artist's eyes :-)

[ROKUJURO]

I thought that these were CHIDORI. They have a very different flight pattern compared to KARIGARE. This depiction always expressed the erratic flight - often in large flocks - of plovers in an appropriate way for me.

But that is just my interpretation.

[Bugyotsuji]

1 hour ago, Spartancrest said:

 

What type of bird is this supposed to be?  I don't know of any that look like this in reality.

Look at the Kamon on Shibata Katsuie’s kimono.

[Brian]

Maybe doesn't even represent a specific bird, maybe just birds without a species. Never know...

[ROKUJURO]

Piers,

as you are living in the midst of Japanese culture, could you perhaps ask the opinion of the 'natives' about this?

[MauroP]

The examples I provided are all from papered tsuba, and all NBTHK papers reported the subjects as karigane. The stylized birds with "twisted body' are reported as 結雁金  - musubikarigane.

[ROKUJURO]

Musubi Karigane (結び雁金) is a traditional Japanese family crest (kamon) featuring a stylized wild goose whose wings are knotted or looped into a circle. It symbolizes "a bird that carries good luck and good news" and is closely associated with SAMURAI families, most notably the SANADA clan. It represents loyalty and is a variation of the Karigane (wild goose) motif. 

Key details about Musubi Karigane:
Design & symbolism: It features a kari (wild goose), a migratory bird often linked to autumn. The bird is designed with its face facing left and its wings deformed/knotted into a circle.

Samurai Crest: This crest was used by the Shinano-Sanada clan, as well as families like the Umino and Inoue. It was frequently used for armor, sword mountings (TSUBA), and other samurai gear.

Variations: Often stylized as Shiri-awase Mitsu-musubi Karigane, where three knotted geese are arranged in a circle.

Modern Usage: It is still recognized as a classic design in Japanese traditional arts, sometimes used on clothing or items related to Japanese history.

Taken from the internet

[FlorianB]

There must been an old Chinese story about binding slips of paper with messages into the feathers of birds.
Thus musubi-karigane are bearer of good news and at least good luck as Jean mentioned.

 

There was a thread on this motif some years ago:

 

Edited 22 hours ago by FlorianB

[Curran]

On 4/1/2026 at 4:31 AM, MauroP said:

There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent. [Mao Zedong]

Maybe the pieces in hand would narrow down a decision? Nope! It isn't science, it's a kind of kult. The experts don't consent even on the kind of birds... (clearly karigane, not chidori, IMHO).

 

I understood #1, #2, and eventually #3 after another look to better perceive the 3-D and features. Leave final judgement till I had it in hand, or at least the room.

Personally, I don't feel #4 is correct,

and #5 I would have gone with Tosa Myochin unless something felt very different in hand.

 

I think of this as a very popular Tensho 天正 era suggestive image.  [I wish Ford were still here to argue with me about it.]

You are going to see lots of interpretations from all over Japan, and the 3-D of the tsuba and working matter a lot. 

 

2-D  Black n White images are challenging.

I sometimes wonder about the accuracy of old attributions done by mail correspondence with black n white photos. 

Especially with a design like this.

[FlorianB]

I get the impression that the attributions are based solely on gut feeling.

Yes, there are proofs presented: books and papers.

But some people with knowledge and experience doubt these and state another opinion. 
Who’s right?

 

What I'm missing here is an explanation of which detail point to one school or another.

 

I'm thinking for example about the width of the bridges, angles, shapes and proportions of the elements, the proportions of the elements to each other, composition, kebori and so on.

These are things that can also be seen in pictures, and I'm ignoring details like tagane, tekkotsu, insides, and so forth, for which I would need to have the piece in my hand.

 

Otherwise, it will remain just a „clash of opinions“ from which no one can really learn.