Just missed out on a Yagyu tsuba.

[Hector]

Last night I was bidding on this tsuba but lost my nerve in the end.

It was going steadily up in price and, even if it did prove to be the genuine article (which was almost impossible to tell from the bad photos), it was in such a rusty condition I didn't have faith in myself that I could restore it - no matter how much bone or Ivory I used.

[eternal_newbie]

For what it's worth, I think you made the right choice. Unless you're a real professional or have large amounts of cash to throw away, it's too risky taking a punt on things in bad condition without assessing them in hand.

[ROKUJURO]

Hector,

unfortunately, the photos are really bad, specifically because of the white background which does not allow a good contrast. In additition to all the corrosion, the surface and patiine cannot be seen properly, so it would have been a risk to put much money in it.  

[kissakai]

I would have taken a chance but only up to a certain value and had it repatinated as we know there some really good restorers

 

[Dan tsuba]

And there is the difference between collectors!

That is my kind of tsuba, old and rusted!

If I could have purchased it for under $150 U.S. all I would have done is clean it with gun bore cleaner, dipped it in mineral spirits, dryed it off, put a nail in the wall, hung it up and called it good to add to my collection and enjoy!

But that is just me!

 

[Dereks]

19 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

And there is the difference between collectors!

That is my kind of tsuba, old and rusted!

If I could have purchased it for under $150 U.S. all I would have done is clean it with gun bore cleaner, dipped it in mineral spirits, dryed it off, put a nail in the wall, hung it up and called it good to add to my collection and enjoy!

But that is just me!

 

 

A great recipe for destroying a 400-year-old precious object. Hope it ended up in the hands of a serious collector who will respect it, have it professionally cleaned and repatinated in the traditional way, and allow it to survive another hundred years.

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Derek.

You stated-

 

"A great recipe for destroying a 400-year-old precious object. Hope it ended up in the hands of a serious collector who will respect it, have it professionally cleaned and repatinated in the traditional way, and allow it to survive another hundred years."

 

No way is cleaning a rusted tsuba with gun bore cleaner and then putting it in mineral spirits and wipe it down is going to destroy a 400 year old tsuba!

 

And it will easily survive for another hundred years!

 

Now if you want to spend maybe another (I don't know) about $200 to $400 (?) dollars to make an old rusted tsuba in perfect condition again (because that is what a "serioius collector" would do-your statement), well that is up to you or whoever that serious collector is!

 

And don't try to allude to the fact that I don't respect my pieces just because I don't spend hundreds of dollars having them professionally cleaned and repatinated.  Who do you think you are?

[Dereks]

1 minute ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hi Derek.

You stated-

 

"A great recipe for destroying a 400-year-old precious object. Hope it ended up in the hands of a serious collector who will respect it, have it professionally cleaned and repatinated in the traditional way, and allow it to survive another hundred years."

 

No way is cleaning a rusted tsuba with gun bore cleaner and then putting it in mineral spirits and wipe it down is going to destroy a 400 year old tsuba!

 

And it will easily survive for another hundred years!

 

Now if you want to spend maybe another (I don't know) about $200 to $400 (?) dollars to make an old rusted tsuba in perfect condition again, well that is up to you!

 

Dear Dan, 

 

When these rare Yagyu tsuba are valued at USD 5,000–10,000 (and often more) in today’s market, spending USD 400–500 on repairs and having it papered seems like a very reasonable investment, don’t you think? You’ll also enjoy it far more with a proper patina.

[Dan tsuba]

Yes Derek, I will have to agree with you on that one.

 

But if I could afford to spend $5,000 to $10,000 U.S. on a tsuba and then another maybe $500 to have it repaired and papered, I wouldn't be able to enjoy it!

After spending that much money on a tsuba I would have to place it in my bank safety deposit box!

 

There are those that collect tsuba for enjoyment (like me - and I don't usually spend over $150 U.S. for a tsuba) and then their are those that collect tsuba to sell them and make a profit.

 

Oh well, to each their own.

 

[zanilu]

 

[Dereks]

1 minute ago, Dan tsuba said:

Yes Derek, I will have to agree with you on that one.

 

But if I could afford to spend $5,000 to $10,000 U.S. on a tsuba and then another maybe $500 to have it repaired and papered, I wouldn't be able to enjoy it!

After spending that much money on a tsuba I would have to place it in my bank safety deposit box!

 

There are those that collect tsuba for enjoyment (like me - and I don't usually spend over $150 U.S. for a tsuba) and then their are those that collect tsuba to selll them and make a profit.

 

Oh well, to each their own.

 

 

Yes, my point was simply that if someone is lucky enough to acquire a piece like this for under USD 150, then investing another USD 400–500 in proper repairs and papers makes good sense. If I had spent USD 10,000 on it, I’d probably be sleeping with it under my pillow.

[Curran]

The cost of NBTHK papers just went up recently.

 

Not that it matters much in this small financial debate about the restoration of a Yagyu.

I have seen them cleaned up before, worked on a bit, and then off to NBTHK for papers.

 

[ROKUJURO]

In the first place, preservation has nothing to do with the value of an object. Any antique iron TSUBA will turn into oxide earlier or later, but with a proper protection treatment (which can mean rust-removal and new patination) and good care (e.g. not hanging it on a nail wall...), it can survive more centuries.

But that has to do with some understanding of the processes and the necessary responsibility.

[Dan tsuba]

Wow Jean, my opinion you are a tsuba snob.

You stated-

 "but with a proper protection treatment (which can mean rust-removal and new patination) and good care (e.g. not hanging it on a nail....), it can survive more centuries.
But that has to do with some understanding of the processes and responsibility."

So you think I have no "understanding of the processes and responsibility."

You think that me hanging my tsuba on a steel nail on my walls for my enjoyment is not responsible.

Come on tsuba snob.  Tsuba were mounted on steel tangs of swords, hanging them on my walls with a little steel nail is not going to damage them!

Like I said before, you are a tsuba snob!

All I need from my tsuba is to survive longer than me.  If I have another 15 years left, I would consider myself really lucky.

What happens to my tsuba after I pass will not be my problem, it would be up to my heirs to figure that out.

You do what you want to with your tsuba, and I will do what I want to with my tsuba to enjoy them while I am stilll around.

End of story!

My opinion.

[zanilu]

Tsuba are art objects and old artifact that deserve to be treated accordingly.

 

Restoration shall be done properly with proper techniques and  tools.

 

Dealing with hundreds of years old artifacts put us in the position not of owner but of keeper. We have the responsibility of taking care of objects that will outlive us to pass them down to future generation.

 

19 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

All I need from my tsuba is to survive longer than me.  If I have another 15 years left, I would consider myself really lucky.

 

 

This sentence of yours, Dan, shows that you have completely misunderstood the heart of this hobby!

I suggest you to read this thread:

 

 

What it is said in this post for swords also applies to tosogu.

 

You can call me a snob now, frankly speaking I do not care!

 

Luca

 

[Dan tsuba]

What is wrong with you guys?

 

So, all I stated was “all I would have done is clean it with gun bore cleaner, dipped it in mineral spirits, dryed it off, put a nail in the wall, hung it up and called it good to add to my collection and enjoy!”

And I also stated “No way is cleaning a rusted tsuba with gun bore cleaner and then putting it in mineral spirits and wipe it down is going to destroy a 400 year old tsuba!

And it will easily survive for another hundred years!”

 

Then I get these responses from various members-

 

“In the first place, preservation has nothing to do with the value of an object. Any antique iron TSUBA will turn into oxide earlier or later, but with a proper protection treatment (which can mean rust-removal and new patination) and good care (e.g. not hanging it on a nail wall...), it can survive more centuries.

But that has to do with some understanding of the processes and the necessary responsibility.”

 

“Tsuba are art objects and old artifact that deserve to be treated accordingly.

Restoration shall be done properly with proper techniques and  tools.

Dealing with hundreds of years old artifacts put us in the position not of owner but of keeper. We have the responsibility of taking care of objects that will outlive us to pass them down to future generation.”

 

Also, in that reply was included my statement of “All I need from my tsuba is to survive longer than me.  If I have another 15 years left, I would consider myself really lucky”

 

The reply continues “This sentence of yours, Dan, shows that you have completely misunderstood the heart of this hobby!

I suggest you to read this thread:”

 

Are these responses from members that make money from restoring tsuba?

 

All I do is clean off my tsuba with a soft toothbrush dipped in gun bore cleaner.  Then I take another soft toothbrush dipped in mineral spirits and clean it again.  Then I wipe it down and call it good to go. 

 

How those tsuba snobs’ statements shown above feel that I am destroying a tsuba is ridiculous!

 

No where in my statement am I saying to polish a tsuba or to take sandpaper to it or to do anything invasive to the piece that may ruin it.

 

You guys are overreacting!  Why are you doing that?  Are you trying to protect your restoration business?

 

My opinion!

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

.....That is my kind of tsuba, old and rusted!....

Maybe you really don't understand?

Rust is the enemy of iron. It is not a decorative feature on TSUBA, it even does not necessarily have to do with age. It is not a layer on top of the surface, it is the material itself, turned into oxide. Rust is eating up a TSUBA and should be removed or at least reduced/inactivated.

If one can understand this process and has a minimal feeling of respect and responsibility towards an antique, handmade object of art/craft, they would want to preserve it in an appropriate way. This is not done fast with chemicals, it is a labour of love and care - and time. It also requires a basic knowledge of how an iron TSUBA is made, and how they are traditionally preserved and stored. 

Being a caretaker of an antique object has nothing to do with personal taste, it is first and foremost an obligation to learn, the more if the object is belonging to another culture with possibly different value perception and appreciation. 

In case you care to read about the WABI-SABI concept, you will find that Japanese appreciate objects (often of simple character like traditional household items) that show respectful, long-term use. Not neglected, not just "old". There is a form of love behind that, of deep understanding and respect. And also - perhaps - a feeling of thankfulness towards the ancestors who preserved the item so carefully.

Did you know that in SHINTOISM, it is believed that handmade objects ( as well as old solitary trees, rocks, waterfalls a.s.o.) used by many hands (e.g. a good DEBA knife for the kitchen) over many years, can carry a KAMI, a good spririt who is nourished by the good intentions, respect and care of the people. When, after generations, the knife-blade is used up so that it cannot be sharpened any more, they carry the knife to a priest in the SHINTO shrine and have him release the KAMI from the knife in a ceremony. Only then the remains of the knife can be recycled. 

I am sorry for going off the path, but I wanted to underline that we have to accept that in another culture things may be seen differently in comparison with what we are used to. We are requested to learn and respect that. We do not need to become Japanese citizens to be good TSUBA collectors, just showing a minimal respect and awareness for what we hold in our hands.   
 

[Dan tsuba]

Jean,

 

First off, what is with the black presentation of your post?  Is that meant to impress me?

Well, it didn't work!

Next, you have gone off the rails, missed the point, are trying a diversion, and now you are just rambling.

You are a tsuba snob.

My opinion.

[Robert S]

Dan, honestly, no need for name calling.  Jean is diving into some interesting cultural areas, which is hardly more "off the rails" than many of the discussions that happen here.  You don't need to defend your approach to tsuba collecting, just enjoy it.  

 

My two cents on tsuba storage - the thing that makes me the most nervous is actually those tsuba boxes with the fabric lining. They look great, but if not properly stored, with good humidity control. they can be an invitation for moisture damage.  I've seen tsuba where you could tell which face had been down.  I'd actually take Dan's "hang it on a nail" approach over the boxes... although preferably neither :-).

[ROKUJURO]

9 hours ago, Robert S said:

......those tsuba boxes with the fabric lining. They look great, but if not properly stored, with good humidity control. they can be an invitation for moisture damage. ....

Robert,

what you describe is not the fault of the KIRIBAKO, it is the humidity around.

[zanilu]

19 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Are these responses from members that make money from restoring tsuba?

 

You guys are overreacting!  Why are you doing that?  Are you trying to protect your restoration business?

 

18 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

You are a tsuba snob.

 

Why you always use offense and slandering? 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Luca, 

You are joking, right?  I am not "offense and slandering".

You want to see put downs, belittling, berating, and ridiculing, then read some of the threads that I have contributed to (or started) and learn what others have said to me!

Where were you when other members tried to intimidate, ridicule, berate, and belittle me!

I don't remember you saying anything in my defense!

My opinion.

[Scogg]

Hi Dan,
 

It’s already implied that uncited conversational comments are your opinions.
 

Calling someone a “snob” is name-calling, and accusing others of being part of a conspiracy to benefit restoration businesses, something you’ve entirely fabricated, can be viewed as slander.
 

In the opinion of others, you are sharing bad advice and therefore receiving pushback for it. If that makes you feel intimidated, ridiculed, berated, or belittled, that is your perception, but it does not justify personal attacks or spreading false claims.
 

This forum is explicitly for the study and preservation of genuine Japanese swords and fittings.
I sincerely hope that means we’re all “snobs” when it comes to this stuff.

-Sam

[zanilu]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

Luca, 

You are joking, right?  I am not "offense and slandering".

No I am not.

And that's my opinion.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

First to Scogg,

Hi Sam (Scogg) I get what you are saying.

I also never considered myself a tsuba snob when it comes to this stuff, but maybe I am!

 

Now to Luca (zanilu).

You only answered the first line of my post.

How about answering the rest of it?

[Robert S]

11 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Robert,

what you describe is not the fault of the KIRIBAKO, it is the humidity around.

To a significant degree, I agree - it begins with excess humidity.  The kiribako can provide some protection (that's the goal of the kiri wood), but once the humidity is inside, the fabric can be a moisture trap.  Ideally those boxes should be designed to have a small lip on the central post which would suspend the tsuba 5 mm or so above the bottom of the box, to provide air flow.  It brings out the design nerd in me :-)

[ROKUJURO]

I agree Robert.

Better quality KIRIBAKO are designed that way.

[Robert S]

On 1/30/2026 at 3:28 PM, ROKUJURO said:

.

Did you know that in SHINTOISM, it is believed that handmade objects ( as well as old solitary trees, rocks, waterfalls a.s.o.) used by many hands (e.g. a good DEBA knife for the kitchen) over many years, can carry a KAMI, a good spririt who is nourished by the good intentions, respect and care of the people. When, after generations, the knife-blade is used up so that it cannot be sharpened any more, they carry the knife to a priest in the SHINTO shrine and have him release the KAMI from the knife in a ceremony. Only then the remains of the knife can be recycled. 

Jean:  This is so totally my experience.  Objects become qualitatively different with time and care.  I have a 1920's French kitchen knife which practically glows!  Some may call me a mad mystic for this, but I really do experience it.  Even new objects which were made with love and care are completely different than another machine made consumer item.  Japanese craftspeople understand that so well.  It's why I am surrounded by things I have made with careful attention, including my house, and things that others have.  I know it's an enormously privileged existence, with many barely making do with anything they can get, but it's how I want to live, and can.
 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Robert,

if we do not live this life in a way that fits us, in which life could we do it?

I understand what you are saying, but it is probably not for everyone. You need to have a certain sense or sensibility for that. To me, it happens from time to time that I see a place in the forest or a hand-made item with age and use. It is as if there was something like a connection, but nothing you could really grasp.
Perhaps it is only a form of mental condition?   

[Dan tsuba]

Robert,

I think that I have said this before in another thread (but can’t remember which thread!).

I have experienced a few of my tsuba actually communicating with me.

That is all I will say for now.

I know, weird but true!