Thoughts on this sword I just picked up

[Eric187]

5 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

This sacred "ball" seems interesting indeed, the NMB is about to teach me something yet again. So, would any of the experts who have already commented on this sword please enlighten me as to how often we see perfectly drilled or punched (looks drilled) holes that represent the mystic ball, in the Ji of the sword? I have to admit this is my first but then again experts like @Matsunoki or @Bruce Pennington or @ChrisW any examples you can share? I genuinely would like to learn about this Horimono technique and which Kaji usually executed such mastery in a critical area of a sword? Such a round circle no less, masterfully executed. Mino you say? Any examples from databases to be shared? @Eric187 could you let us know how much you paid for this sword?

The center is a raised ball so I would assume the chisels work was done around it to create the ball rather then a drill but I’m not very knowledgeable on the carving process though.

[Brian]

Ray,
If you look at the last pic of it, which shows it better...it's far from a perfect round circle and shows carving. Granted not the best variation of the jewel, but they usually do have a domed center piece with a nub, as this one does. Can't tell how deep it is, but certainly not a hole or drilled?

[Rayhan]

Just now, Eric187 said:

The center is a raised ball so I would assume the chisels work was done around it to create the ball rather then a drill but I’m not very knowledgeable on the carving process though.

Given the raised part then it must be a traditional Horimono effect, yes. I am wondering why in this area of the sword and by who? Which school is famous for this style of carving?

[Rayhan]

Just now, Brian said:

Ray,
If you look at the last pic of it, which shows it better...it's far from a perfect round circle and shows carving. Granted not the best variation of the jewel, but they usually do have a domed center piece with a nub, as this one does. Can't tell how deep it is, but certainly not a hole or drilled?

With you on that, I am genuinely curious and looking for examples myself, there must be a terminology associated with this?

[Eric187]

5 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

With you on that, I am genuinely curious and looking for examples myself, there must be a terminology associated with this?

I’ll try to play with maybe filters on the photo to show but it looks like it has a spiral from the center of the ball around it but hard to get a pic cause it’s small

[Rayhan]

3 minutes ago, Eric187 said:

I’ll try to play with maybe filters on the photo to show but it looks like it has a spiral from the center of the ball around it but hard to get a pic cause it’s small

I am also very interested in the actual positioning of the Horimono, its new to me. At first I though this must be Mino Kanenori but the Hamon isn't an exact fit and his Horimono could not compare to the mystical ball in this example. 

[Eric187]

2 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

I am also very interested in the actual positioning of the Horimono, its new to me. At first I though this must be Mino Kanenori but the Hamon isn't an exact fit and his Horimono could not compare to the mystical ball in this example. 

With calipers the jewel is 33mm from the dragons out stretched hand, to give you an idea of distance

[Rayhan]

Just now, Eric187 said:

With calipers the jewel is 33mm from the dragons out stretched hand, to give you an idea of distance

I cannot see the Yokote on this sword but if you draw an imaginary line down where the Yokote should be, can you tell me the distance from the ball to the Yokote?

[Eric187]

6 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

I cannot see the Yokote on this sword but if you draw an imaginary line down where the Yokote should be, can you tell me the distance from the ball to the Yokote?

I’ll take a better pic it does have a Yokote, I’ll get measurements for you after work.

[Brian]

The placement of the horimono does suggest atobori. I would advise against using the horimono as a feature when appraising the sword in this case. 

[Eric187]

54 minutes ago, Eric187 said:

I’ll try to play with maybe filters on the photo to show but it looks like it has a spiral from the center of the ball around it but hard to get a pic cause it’s small

I darkened it so you can kinda make out the spiral

[ChrisW]

I agree with Brian. The quality of the carving suggests atobori. To the uninitiated, this means that it was done long after the sword was forged. And sometimes, but not always, atobori is done to conceal open flaws on the surface of the metal.

However, all opinions are secondary to an opinion rendered in hand. Photos can only do so much. Speaking from personal experience, cell phone cameras just can't do a sword justice!

[Bryce]

G'day Eric,

The bonji on your blade represents the entity Fudo myo-o. I have a Gassan Sadakatsu blade with similar horimono. Your blade is not Gassan work though.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Eric187]

3 hours ago, Bryce said:

G'day Eric,

The bonji on your blade represents the entity Fudo myo-o. I have a Gassan Sadakatsu blade with similar horimono. Your blade is not Gassan work though.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

Thank you

[Eric187]

10 hours ago, Eric187 said:

I’ll take a better pic it does have a Yokote, I’ll get measurements for you after work.

128mm from Yokote

[Rayhan]

•  

On 9/7/2025 at 12:02 AM, ChrisW said:

Hello Eric!

To be sure, you have an interesting piece, but photos on the internet make it difficult to ascertain much. Since I am local, I'll reach out to you in DM to help you get assistance locally.

~Chris

 

On 9/7/2025 at 1:02 AM, Rivkin said:

Shinshinto. The carving is on the one hand is sort of garish, on the other hand it is steady and the quality is above average.

 

On 9/7/2025 at 2:49 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

I'm fascinated by the steaming pot!  Wonder what they were cooking?

 

On 9/7/2025 at 3:12 PM, Alex A said:

Yep, someone thought it worthy of full length Bo-hi.

 

What's the kasane?

 

On 9/7/2025 at 4:16 PM, Alex A said:

6.5mm  

 

Cheers. Would let one of your polishers over there see it and get an opinion.

 

 

 

@Eric187 These comments above make you feel good, I know. And everyone wants to be told they have bought something special. I will do the opposite and tell you that I hope what you paid was the very lowest possible price and not more, I mean if you got this for 200 USD or less then be happy with it but anything over that and I must ask why you didn't consult someone before purchasing this? 

 

Firstly the shape of the blade is Edo period but has been shortened (not good for the period) and is Mumei (also not good for the period). The suriage on this blade was not done well and from the pictures it looks like someone cleaned the tang? Could you tell us the Kasane at the thickest point along the Nakago please?

 

There is Bohi that also looks Atobori and if you run your fingers (use a Kleenex or Fukusa cloth DO NOT USE YOUR BARE HANDS please) along the Bohi you will meet dips and divots and general lack of uniformity, can you check? the Bohi dips downward and that would be an indicator of being added much later and not executed well. 

 

The Horimono, In general from the Gassan example that is placed in this post you can see how excellent Horimono should be done (not the Gassan best, their best are better than this example even). 

Note that the majority of Horimono go on the Shinogi-Ji, this is the thickest part of a Nihonto Daito (or Wakizashi). Tanto do not follow this rule. This is done for structural integrity (in old Koto, Kamakura swords you will see mei carved in the Shinogi Ji area of the Nakago, not in the full Nakago like in the Edo period and much less extensively and with a lighter touch, this is a matter of structural integrity). In your swords case the Horimono is half way up the sword and in the Ji mostly. Horimono are placed towards the lower part of the Nagasa because that is also the thicker part of the sword. Then there is the mystical ball....If you practice Iai or Kendo or read about Nihonto you will know that the 15CM or 150MM from the Yokote down on the Ura and Omote are the striking area on an offensive and you would not put a magical mystical ball in the Ji here and introduce a point of structural weakness.... I have never seen it. But, I am waiting to be shown by the NMB experts who praised this sword. Still waiting for the terminology for that type of Horimono also. You mention your Kasane is 6.5 MM so then what is the thickness where the mystical ball is and how deep is the inside edge carved into that area? 

 

After being advised to have the sword polished, what will be the depth then? 

 

This is not a sword, it is a wall hanger and I hope that is what you paid for it. Sorry to be blunt. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rivkin]

Wholeheartedly agree. Feeling charitable, I am willing to take this sword for 300$.

[Brian]

Rayhan has given reasons why he says what he says. If you don't agree...comeback with reasons. If you just post insults or anything that doesn't add to the discussion, you will get booted.
Warning....don't make me delete any more comments.

[Eric187]

3 hours ago, Rayhan said:

•  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Eric187 These comments above make you feel good, I know. And everyone wants to be told they have bought something special. I will do the opposite and tell you that I hope what you paid was the very lowest possible price and not more, I mean if you got this for 200 USD or less then be happy with it but anything over that and I must ask why you didn't consult someone before purchasing this? 

 

Firstly the shape of the blade is Edo period but has been shortened (not good for the period) and is Mumei (also not good for the period). The suriage on this blade was not done well and from the pictures it looks like someone cleaned the tang? Could you tell us the Kasane at the thickest point along the Nakago please?

 

There is Bohi that also looks Atobori and if you run your fingers (use a Kleenex or Fukusa cloth DO NOT USE YOUR BARE HANDS please) along the Bohi you will meet dips and divots and general lack of uniformity, can you check? the Bohi dips downward and that would be an indicator of being added much later and not executed well. 

 

The Horimono, In general from the Gassan example that is placed in this post you can see how excellent Horimono should be done (not the Gassan best, their best are better than this example even). 

Note that the majority of Horimono go on the Shinogi-Ji, this is the thickest part of a Nihonto Daito (or Wakizashi). Tanto do not follow this rule. This is done for structural integrity (in old Koto, Kamakura swords you will see mei carved in the Shinogi Ji area of the Nakago, not in the full Nakago like in the Edo period and much less extensively and with a lighter touch, this is a matter of structural integrity). In your swords case the Horimono is half way up the sword and in the Ji mostly. Horimono are placed towards the lower part of the Nagasa because that is also the thicker part of the sword. Then there is the mystical ball....If you practice Iai or Kendo or read about Nihonto you will know that the 15CM or 150MM from the Yokote down on the Ura and Omote are the striking area on an offensive and you would not put a magical mystical ball in the Ji here and introduce a point of structural weakness.... I have never seen it. But, I am waiting to be shown by the NMB experts who praised this sword. Still waiting for the terminology for that type of Horimono also. You mention your Kasane is 6.5 MM so then what is the thickness where the mystical ball is and how deep is the inside edge carved into that area? 

 

After being advised to have the sword polished, what will be the depth then? 

 

This is not a sword, it is a wall hanger and I hope that is what you paid for it. Sorry to be blunt. 

 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate your write up and explanation, bluntness is never a bad thing especially when it’s informative.  

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Has anyone thought about the forging flaws in this blade , it is full of them. They seem to be kizu rather than rust pits. It is unsalvageable

[Bazza]

1 minute ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Has anyone thought about the forging flaws in this blade , it is full of them. They seem to be kizu rather than rust pits. It is unsalvageable

My thoughts exactly.  I was wondering when someone would notice...

 

BaZZa.

[Alex A]

Think maybe your looking too much into it Ray.

 

No one thinks they are an expert. You calling everyone experts in a sarcastic way actually makes it appear like your up for title of "expert"

 

My advice was see a polisher and see what he thinks. 6.5 mm doesn't seen a total no go, but would have speak to them.

 

Will tell you that judging a swords sori from images can be veery misleading.

 

The type of suriage is "keicho" suriage and yes, good swords have been chopped that way. Tenshō-suriage and Keichō-suriage | Markus Sesko

 

To me the sword has a Momoyama feel with the width at the kissaki appearing quite hefty, longer kissaki.

 

Im not interested in the horimono, apart from the bohi.

 

Do i necessarily think its a diamond in the rough, no, hence why i suggested it go to someone in hand.

 

It don't make sense to carve full length Bo-hi on crappy swords, it was expensive.

 

Punched ana can appear drilled if done well.

 

This isn't a knowledge competition, its folks trying to help folks the best they can. No one likes sticking their head out and being wrong, but ive learned to not give a **** as thats how i learn.

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Has anyone thought about the forging flaws in this blade , it is full of them. They seem to be kizu rather than rust pits. It is unsalvageable

Agreed. IMO the blade has seen many polishes and the kizuware have become more evident. The apparent lack of wear in the fine details of the horimono indicate this was added fairly recently, possibly to the mask some particularly bad areas (hence the unusual location for the dragon?). Further polishes will not help and probably make things worse. IMHO

[When Necessary]

"These comments above make you feel good, I know. And everyone wants to be told they have bought something special."

Quoting all the positive remarks of Rivkin, Bruce, Alex and Chris but omitting Brian's equally encouraging comment below. 
 

Mmm - now why would that be? 🤔

[Rayhan]

1 hour ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Has anyone thought about the forging flaws in this blade , it is full of them. They seem to be kizu rather than rust pits. It is unsalvageable

Yes, this is true and the most obvious also, I am waiting for @Eric187 to answer a few questions before getting into this evaluation further:

 

why you didn't consult someone before purchasing this? 

Could you tell us the Kasane at the thickest point along the Nakago please?

 

There is Bohi that also looks Atobori and if you run your fingers (use a Kleenex or Fukusa cloth DO NOT USE YOUR BARE HANDS please) along the Bohi you will meet dips and divots and general lack of uniformity, can you check?

You mention your Kasane is 6.5 MM so then what is the thickness where the mystical ball is and how deep is the inside edge carved into that area? 

And how much did you pay for this sword?

I suppose I should ask where it was purchased from because if someone advised and actively marketed this to you they should be named publicly for doing you a disservice. If you can get your money back please do. 

 

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Think maybe your looking too much into it Ray.

 

No one thinks they are an expert. You calling everyone experts in a sarcastic way actually makes it appear like your up for title of "expert"

 

My advice was see a polisher and see what he thinks. 6.5 mm doesn't seen a total no go, but would have speak to them.

 

Will tell you that judging a swords sori from images can be veery misleading.

 

The type of suriage is "keicho" suriage and yes, good sword have been chopped that way. Tenshō-suriage and Keichō-suriage | Markus Sesko

 

To me the sword has a Momoyama feel with width the width at the kissaki appearing quite hefty, longer kissaki.

 

Im not interested in the horimono, apart from the bohi.

 

Do i necessarily think its a diamond in the rough, no, hence why i suggested it go to someone in hand.

 

It don't make sense to carve full length Bo-hi on crappy swords, it was expensive.

 

Punched ana can appear drilled if done well.

 

This isn't a knowledge competition, its folks trying to help folks the best they can. No one likes sticking their head out and being wrong, but ive learned to not give a **** as thats how i learn.

 

@Alex A I think I have seen some Keicho executed far better than this and the Nakago looks ill formed when looking at the sword as a whole. We can settle the kissaki issue but asking for the dimensions. As for the comment on expert, I suggest you own the mistake you made here, one that irks me every time I see the new guy being asked to send his sword to a polisher, for what, in this case just say you didn't see the mess it was already in and own it. The bohi Alex....Let us study Bohi if we want to buy a sword with Bohi, you look at Hatakeda school and how they cut Bohi that looks sublime as if it was the absolute intention to have it there naturally, we can look at Aoe, Rai,  Soshu smiths even in Muromachi, look at Kiyomaro, and especially look at Gassan (all of them do incredible Bohi and Horimono), look at Honjo Yoshitane and of course look at Umetada and his school of smiths. Do not assume just because there is bohi that it is original and done well.... where did this rule come in? Please show us. This is not a knowledge competition but it is annoying to see that @Eric187 is being advised to send this to a polisher... for what exactly. I think we could help by dissecting the sword and then saying why...there are other threads where that is being done without jumping to conclusions. You all hate taking advice or intention from me, well then take it from someone you all respect:

 

"On the other hand, there are lots of swords that are polished but without deserving this costly treatment; the reason is only that the owner thought that every Japanese blade should be polished." -- Guido

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rayhan]

35 minutes ago, When Necessary said:

"These comments above make you feel good, I know. And everyone wants to be told they have bought something special."

Quoting all the positive remarks of Rivkin, Bruce, Alex and Chris but omitting Brian's equally encouraging comment below. 
 

Mmm - now why would that be? 🤔

Dude take a xxxxing laxative. 

[When Necessary]

2 hours ago, Alex A said:

Think maybe your looking too much into it Ray.

 

No one thinks they are an expert. You calling everyone experts in a sarcastic way actually makes it appear like your up for title of "expert"

 

My advice was see a polisher and see what he thinks. 6.5 mm doesn't seen a total no go, but would have speak to them.

 

Will tell you that judging a swords sori from images can be veery misleading.

 

The type of suriage is "keicho" suriage and yes, good swords have been chopped that way. Tenshō-suriage and Keichō-suriage | Markus Sesko

 

To me the sword has a Momoyama feel with the width at the kissaki appearing quite hefty, longer kissaki.

 

Im not interested in the horimono, apart from the bohi.

 

Do i necessarily think its a diamond in the rough, no, hence why i suggested it go to someone in hand.

 

It don't make sense to carve full length Bo-hi on crappy swords, it was expensive.

 

Punched ana can appear drilled if done well.

 

This isn't a knowledge competition, its folks trying to help folks the best they can. No one likes sticking their head out and being wrong, but ive learned to not give a **** as thats how i learn.

I completely agree with you, Alex. This looks slightly older than Edo to me but it's definitely on its last legs and the horimono is an awkward add-on. Restorable? I doubt it - but, as Brian said, it's worth investigating. 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Rayhans point is that we have to stop giving people false hope when it comes to their swords.This piece is not worth investigating it is a poor quality junker that is beyond restoration 

[Alex A]

Rayhan.

 

I suggested that the sword gets shown to a polisher who will see it in hand and give his thoughts, before money is spent.

 

Learned a long time ago as to shut up on what can and cant be sorted out, as im not a polisher and we are looking at pictures. Seen what appeared unsalvageable come up ok. Im not suggesting this swords gets shipped to Japan for a top notch polish.

 

The nakago has been messed with, cleaned. Ok, so its not the perfect example of suriage and is not in amazing condition, that's something the owner needs to consider.

 

If the bohi was added much later, i would not of assumed it would run the full length of the blade and down and off the nakago. I feel it would have been done not so long after it was made. The bo-hi in the nakago shows some age, wear and patina that has not been cleaned.

 

Im not judging an out of polish sword on the quality of the bohi, from PICTURES. As mentioned, pictures are misleading.

 

Also, seen many real good swords with Bo-hi and horimono that have not been done so well.

 

Ian, we are not giving people false hope. He has been given advice to speak with someone with more knowledge that can assess it, in hand.

 

 

[When Necessary]

9 minutes ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Rayhans point is that we have to stop giving people false hope when it comes to their swords.This piece is not worth investigating it is a poor quality junker that is beyond restoration 

Fair enough. But, conversely, how many new people on here would have just given up the first time they heard the death sentence of "gimei" handed down on this board by 'experts'? There would definitely be one less Kiyomaro knocking about.

(And no, before someone gets straight on my case, I am not suggesting for the slightest instant that the sword under discussion on this thread is anything even remotely resembling a Kiyomaro.)