Is sword collecting over?

[sabiji]

And one more thing about the “good old days” and how they romanticize things in our memories.

 

As luck would have it, I recently had the opportunity to see two objects again that I had remembered for perhaps more than 25 years. And I was very surprised by my own reaction.

 

On the one hand, I was really bitterly disappointed by a katana in en suite koshirae, which I myself had praised to the skies in my memory. On the other hand, I was able to see again a blade belonging to an old friend, which I had not appreciated at all at the time. Today, for me, it is the best Ko Mihara I have ever held in my hands.

 

Well, let's wait another 25 years. We change too.

[Rivkin]

Weapon collecting is intrinsically surrounded by romanticism of battle, nobility, shiny armor & stuff. There are "fakes" and "conjectures", yet I don't reject out of hand the notion "this sword was (could have been) at one of the major battles". Two sieges of Osaka and to lesser extent Sekigahara involved very many people, out of whom yes, very few actually killed, but its true for every war. Today in Ukraine firearm casualties are 2-4% of the total, half are friendly fire. There are people picking up still in service [!] collectables like PPSH, seeking an aura of something which served in combat during two wars almost 100 years apart. Chances this particular weapon killed someone are near zero.

Is it still a "combat relic" and was it "at war"? Absolutely. That is what weapons are made for, its just the way they are used and the war itself is very different compared to movies.

 

Dismissive attitude towards "average swords" of 16th century is actually rather unique feature to certain type of nihonto collecting.

If you collect Chinese, most "16th century swords" are dealer's conjectures, and usually rather crazy ones, because the real ones are treasures.

My great-great-grandfather was an "Orientalist" who went as far as converting to Islam. This gave birth to rather bizarre speculations about his genealogy. "Romantic" BS kind of speculations - yes, but in 1900-1930 this was a "proper science", still treated as a "scientific reference" until 20 years ago, influenced my life profoundly. and still does: we all live in myths and legends, but not always willing to acknowledge that.

Apart of that, one of his contributions was discovering a certain tribal blade from the 18th century. He or someone else had it very poorly ("romantically") restored, and it was not a great quality item to being with, but to this day it remains an important reference - because there are not many (any) others of this type and period.

 

Japanese collector's attitude "its just Sukesada" has some basis, but it misses the fact it was a valuable military item back in the days, and in many other cultures something like this would have been a true treasure - because unlike Japan in most cultures people did not collect at all until late XXth century, and these cultures have virtually nothing preserved.

Often such "barren history" is blamed on external factors, but most people simply did not see and do not see value in old things.  The idea to surround yourself with rusty old blades appears mildly crazy - but without such idea, there is no basic foundation for collecting. Without the basic foundation - there never will be an opportunity to select among "rusty old blades" a few which are "superior" and restore them.

 

Collecting is: impractical, somewhat illogical and has a strong potential to scare off sexy women.

Its also a sign of civilization.

[When Necessary]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

Weapon collecting is intrinsically surrounded by romanticism of battle, nobility, shiny armor & stuff. There are "fakes" and "conjectures", yet I don't reject out of hand the notion "this sword was (could have been) at one of the major battles". Two sieges of Osaka and to lesser extent Sekigahara involved very many people, out of whom yes, very few actually killed, but its true for every war. Today in Ukraine firearm casualties are 2-4% of the total, half are friendly fire. There are people picking up still in service [!] collectables like PPSH, seeking an aura of something which served in combat during two wars almost 100 years apart. Chances this particular weapon killed someone are near zero.

Is it still a "combat relic" and was it "at war"? Absolutely. That is what weapons are made for, its just the way they are used and the war itself is very different compared to movies.

 

Dismissive attitude towards "average swords" of 16th century is actually rather unique feature to certain type of nihonto collecting.

If you collect Chinese, most "16th century swords" are dealer's conjectures, and usually rather crazy ones, because the real ones are treasures.

My great-great-grandfather was an "Orientalist" who went as far as converting to Islam. This gave birth to rather bizarre speculations about his genealogy. "Romantic" BS kind of speculations - yes, but in 1900-1930 this was a "proper science", still treated as a "scientific reference" until 20 years ago, influenced my life profoundly. and still does: we all live in myths and legends, but not always willing to acknowledge that.

Apart of that, one of his contributions was discovering a certain tribal blade from the 18th century. He or someone else had it very poorly ("romantically") restored, and it was not a great quality item to being with, but to this day it remains an important reference - because there are not many (any) others of this type and period.

 

Japanese collector's attitude "its just Sukesada" has some basis, but it misses the fact it was a valuable military item back in the days, and in many other cultures something like this would have been a true treasure - because unlike Japan in most cultures people did not collect at all until late XXth century, and these cultures have virtually nothing preserved.

Often such "barren history" is blamed on external factors, but most people simply did not see and do not see value in old things.  The idea to surround yourself with rusty old blades appears mildly crazy - but without such idea, there is no basic foundation for collecting. Without the basic foundation - there never will be an opportunity to select among "rusty old blades" a few which are "superior" and restore them.

 

Collecting is: impractical, somewhat illogical and has a strong potential to scare off sexy women.

Its also a sign of civilization.

Absolutely beautifully put.

[Kantaro]

3 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

 

Collecting is: impractical, somewhat illogical and has a strong potential to scare off sexy women...

 

 

Pffft only now you tell us...

[Brian]

3 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Weapon collecting is intrinsically surrounded by romanticism of battle, nobility, shiny armor & stuff. There are "fakes" and "conjectures", yet I don't reject out of hand the notion "this sword was (could have been) at one of the major battles". Two sieges of Osaka and to lesser extent Sekigahara involved very many people, out of whom yes, very few actually killed, but its true for every war. Today in Ukraine firearm casualties are 2-4% of the total, half are friendly fire. There are people picking up still in service [!] collectables like PPSH, seeking an aura of something which served in combat during two wars almost 100 years apart. Chances this particular weapon killed someone are near zero.

Is it still a "combat relic" and was it "at war"? Absolutely. That is what weapons are made for, its just the way they are used and the war itself is very different compared to movies.

Yes, but when you pick up a PPSH or Moisin Nagant or Type 1 AK47, you are picking up a relic of the past, something with romance and history that was made in the hundreds of thousands. You don't put that into your collection and claim you have a rare or significant specimen. It's a reminder of the past that isn't particularly scarce, just interesting. 
For that you go looking for a (very good condition) Mauser C96 or an Artillery Luger or a Stable Trials Moisin Nagant etc etc. 
People need to decide for themselves if they are militaria collectors or Japanese sword collectors. Nothing wrong with either, militaria swords are outperforning average Nihonto in price, so it makes sense. I appreciate both.

[Scogg]

5 hours ago, Brian said:

People need to decide for themselves if they are militaria collectors or Japanese sword collectors. Nothing wrong with either, militaria swords are outperforming average Nihonto in price, so it makes sense. I appreciate both.

Wise words.

 

I collect and study Nihonto. It's slow and deliberate, and for me, the progress comes at a snails pace. My budget keeps me grounded. I seek out quality swords that I will never afford at shows and museums; while collecting those "lesser" Nihonto that offer something meaningful to me. I enjoy treasure hunting; but treasure hunting to me is simply finding something in the wild, that I like for my collection (even that is rare these days). I'm under no illusions that I'll come upon some lost Masamune 

 

I also collect militaria swords for the quicker gratification. They're easier to study, with clear origins and purposes; which makes learning about them more immediate. I enjoy cataloging, and learning about various conflicts and manufacture methods. 

Both offer different and gratifying paths, that need not intertwine. 
Just knowing what you have without conflating or lying to yourself; is an important lesson.
-Sam

Is sword collecting over? Certainly not for me! 

[The Forest Ninja]

No.

 

 

[Matsunoki]

6 hours ago, Brian said:

. But it does mean you don't get to deride those for whom quality and importance overrides romance and dreams.

Brian I agree but with genuine respect it also means that “they” don’t get to spread blatant falsehoods ie lies and treat with disrespect and derision anyone who sells or collects what they view as below their lofty standards. 
I was somewhat surprised that unjustified and offensive comments on dealers went unchallenged.

Anyway, I hope your health is improving.

All the best.

[Matsunoki]

13 minutes ago, Scogg said:

Is sword collecting over?

Yes, for me, but with regrets (and for a variety of reasons).  One door closes…another opens…….🙂

 

 

[Hokke]

7 hours ago, Brian said:

I'm really not sure what people object to about what Rayhan said here.

Well then perhaps you give it another read through. This thread was clicking along quite well until one member decided to s**t on another members post. Ironically, using the very same kind of sarcasm and pointed remarks others have been called out for. Perhaps that is an unlisted perk of gold member status?

If people want to collect something for its history, regardless of condition or value, who is to say that is wrong or without merit? Everyone has the right to their opinions here, but acting as if you have superior knowledge and looking down at those who do not share your chosen path is one of easiest ways to drive interest down in a hobby. So which way do you want it? You want people to fall in line with rules and regulations that allow you the "right" to spend your hard earned money on something? Or do you want people to engage this hobby how ever they see fit and use forums like this to hopefully guide them toward a deeper appreciation and respect for the culture and craft?

[Stephen]

1 minute ago, Hokke said:

Well then perhaps you give it another read through. This thread was clicking along quite well until one member decided to s**t on another members post. Ironically, using the very same kind of sarcasm and pointed remarks others have been called out for. Perhaps that is an unlisted perk of gold member status?

If people want to collect something for its history, regardless of condition or value, who is to say that is wrong or without merit? Everyone has the right to their opinions here, but acting as if you have superior knowledge and looking down at those who do not share your chosen path is one of easiest ways to drive interest down in a hobby. So which way do you want it? You want people to fall in line with rules and regulations that allow you the "right" to spend your hard earned money on something? Or do you want people to engage this hobby how ever they see fit and use forums like this to hopefully guide them toward a deeper appreciation and respect for the culture and craft?

Mr Calabrese you live in Florida maybe you can meet up with what's necessary and discuss some of the finer points inquiring minds want to know how they them went from a right beginner last year to a full-fledged Authority

[When Necessary]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Mr Calabrese you live in Florida maybe you can meet up with what's necessary and discuss some of the finer points inquiring minds want to know how they them went from a right beginner last year to a full-fledged Authority

Who let the dogs out?

[Toki]

1 hour ago, Hokke said:

This thread was clicking along quite well until one member decided to s**t on another members post

Cant have things going too well on the internet, can we?

[Alex A]

This must be the most common subject on here for turning bad.

 

Hobby cant be dead or you lot wouldn't be getting so upset 

 

"He said something bad about my taste", boo-hoo. Ridiculous when you think about it.

 

Though seen in every collecting hobby.

 

Think folks need to learn how to not give a ****

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Mr Calabrese you live in Florida maybe you can meet up with what's necessary and discuss some of the finer points inquiring minds want to know how they them went from a right beginner last year to a full-fledged Authority

Just curious "elder", are you unable to use punctuation because you lack the education, or do you just choose to write poorly out of spite? The brain twisted assumption that when someone creates an account here on NMB, it somehow means they're new to nihonto, would be comical if not so ridiculous. Dont you have some bad jokes to post in the Izakaya?

[Stephen]

I use voice recognition and if it's a bother just read by it

question was are you willing to meet said person or just going to brush it off with my bad grammar.

[Cola]

Why does every topic with a philosophical question end up in a hissyfit? Saving for a sword? Hissyfit! Low end swords? Hissyfit! The future of sword collecting? Hissyfit!

Maybe you can just start a hissyfit topic to yell profanities at eachother so the other topics remain civil. 

[When Necessary]

Just now, Stephen said:

I use voice recognition and if it's a bother just read by it

question was are you willing to meet said person or just going to brush it off with my bad grammar.

Aw, does gramps want a photo of me with my BIG GUNS out again?

 

Why don't you come to Florida and I'll give you a big kiss? 😘😘😘

[Rawa]

Ffs its 3rd thread ending like this. 

[Stephen]

Just now, When Necessary said:

Aw, does gramps want a photo of me with my BIG GUNS out again?

 

Why don't you come to Florida and I'll give you a big kiss? 😘😘😘

Just to inform others she is a he and lives in Nippon.  Beware if it tries to sell you something not as all as it seems

[When Necessary]

7 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Just to inform others she is a he and lives in Nippon.  Beware if it tries to sell you something not as all as it seems

That wasn't what you said when you asked for my photo in your PM. 😘X

 

[Alex A]

On a side note and i believe it is what Colin eluded to.

 

Dont want to turn this into a big UK legislation debate but eventually i fear it may effect us all, I'm talking international shipping with postal services.

 

For me it is the ONLY issue i get concerned about.

 

I have not opted out of collecting swords, as others in the UK may do, though wont be many more. I will say shipping is now expensive to UK and only certain couriers will oblige from Japan. 

 

To me, this is what you should be concerned about, airlines refusing swords. Shipping could get expensive for everyone.

 

Make hay whilst the sun shines, so they say.

 

The world is changing.

[Rawa]

Just now, Alex A said:

On a side note and i believe it is what Colin eluded to.

 

Dont want to turn this into a big UK legislation debate but eventually i fear it may effect us all, I'm talking international shipping with postal services.

 

For me it is the ONLY issue i get concerned about.

 

I have not opted out of collecting swords, as others in the UK may do, though wont be many more. I will say shipping is now expensive to UK and only certain couriers will oblige from Japan. 

 

To me, this is what you should be concerned about, airlines refusing swords.

 

Make hay whilst the sun shines, so they say.

 

The world is changing.

So we will end with 700$ fedex special service.

[Alex A]

I dont know Marcin, all i know is ive just paid around £320 get a katana here from Japan. Now i didnt think that was too bad with insurance but it did alarm others when i mentioned it.

 

OCS being the chosen shipper, ive never even heard of them.

 

Anyways, fingers crossed lol

 

On a side note, had a koshirae only stuck in customs at parcelforce since 9th July, which is very strange. All it says on the tracking is awating charges, been like that all that time. Parcelforce cant help with customs.

[Hokke]

16 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I use voice recognition and if it's a bother just read by it

question was are you willing to meet said person or just going to brush it off with my bad grammar.

I never mentioned your grammar......which says a lot all on its own.

[Stephen]

2 minutes ago, Hokke said:

I never mentioned your grammar......which says a lot all on its own.

Okay Karen, only way to put somebody down, just like the Facebook Karen's.

I wish you a good eyesight for the rest of your life, I never try  to put a spell on somebody just because they're a smart ass. 

Done with you and Dean

[Scogg]

Here we go again 

Locking the thread due to all the off topic arguing. 

All my mod decisions are reversible; and I always defer to Brians better judgement.

@Brian will have to review and decide what to do with this one. It's late in his timezone, so ya'll will have to wait. 

For now, I see no reason to allow this to continue.
-Sam

[Brian]

3 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I was somewhat surprised that unjustified and offensive comments on dealers went unchallenged.

 

Sometimes..just sometimes, when i think members are strong enough to hold their own, I let things ride because I have every faith they are able to handle themselves and provide decent rebuttals. I try use censorship only as a last resort. Sam made the right call. Some of you here really showed your true colors. Hokke...you don't even know when someone wasn't attacking you, but talking about something completely different, but you immediately go into attack mode? 
Sheesh. I think kindergardens deal with fewer kids than we sometimes have to.
When I am back at the pc for a decent amount of time, there will be some changes.