Potential Pawn Shop Purchase - Two Type 97s

[Kaigunto230]

I walked into a random pawn shop and stumbled onto these two type 97s with very nice fittings and in good polish. The owners clearly had no idea what they had but said “I wouldn’t take less than a thousand each,” which could still be a great deal given the fittings and blade condition. He was hovering over me and snatched them up before I could take proper photos, so I’m sorry for the lack of the normal Sugata etc. shots that are helpful.

 

   The kind members over in the translation section helped with the mei on one:  "Tenshozan Tanrenjo saku and dated a lucky day in February 1942" and unfortunately, the owner couldn't get the mekugi out on the second. I'll probably go back with a Mekuginuki and see if I can follow up, but I also don't want to tip my hand that I'm too interested and have them jack up the price. In the meantime, I'm doing some research with Cox's "Japanese Naval Swords: Swordsmiths and Workshops", Ohmura, Dawson, the forums, and the rest of the normal literature. 

I'll post the photos here in the comments below shortly.

I would love any thoughts. It seems that kaigunto in good polish with nice fittings are generally being sold for $1200-1800 each, but that's hard to pin down. Regardless, if I could get a package deal for less than $2000, these might be good additions, and I'd welcome any opinions. Again, I'm sorry for the lack of full overview photos.

Edited July 26, 2025 by Kaigunto230

[Kaigunto230]

Sword 1 - February 1942

 

 

[Kaigunto230]

Sword 1 - February 1942

[Kaigunto230]

Sword 2 with stuck Mekugi. My assumption is later war though because it has the leather wrap on the tsuka rather than same.

 

 

[Kaigunto230]

Sword 2 with stuck Mekugi. My assumption is later war though because it has the leather wrap on the tsuka rather than same.
 

[Bugyotsuji]

That’s why bamboo mekugi are better than wooden pegs! 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The second sword looks like a Takayama-To, also a non-traditional example. Would go for the Tenshozan if you were choosing between them. 

[Kaigunto230]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

The second sword looks like a Takayama-To, also a non-traditional example. Would go for the Tenshozan if you were choosing between them. 

Thank you! I’ve seen Takayama-to discussed in passing but never had the chance to study one in hand.
 

Could you please say more about that preference? Im not sure if the shop will split up the pair (or frankly if they’ll negotiate to a firm price, since they’re one of those wishy-washy places), but I’d love to hear more about why the Tenshozan is more attractive to you.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The Tenshozan swords have always struck me as carefully finished for non-traditional works, the mounts tend to be of better quality as well. The remnants of the owners label adds some intrigue. 

[Conway S]

Personally I don’t believe the second sword looks like a Takayama-to. Their distinctive kissaki is quite beefy. Here is a comparison photo that @Bruce Pennington once posted:

 

 

 

Here’s more good info on Tenshozan and anti-rust steel:

 

http://ohmura-study.net/731.html

 

And some threads that may help you understand the fittings on the second sword:

 

 

 

[Conway S]

If the pawn shop was only asking $1,000 each and they won’t split them up, you would definitely recoup your money on the second sword or make a profit if you wanted to sell it.

[Bruce Pennington]

Pre Covid, you'd pay $2,400 for just one intact kaigunto.  Haven't kept up with the market on them today, though.  With both having custom rayskin saya cover, I'd say the price is great!

[ChrisW]

Agreed. The price on these is fairly reasonable. I say go for it.

[Kaigunto230]

4 hours ago, Conway S said:

And some threads that may help you understand the fittings on the second sword:

 

 

 @Conway S All great stuff, thank you so much! Actually, my first gunto acquisition is featured in this Rinji thread; here's my original post on it way back when I first started:

Since I have a late war sword already, and I like @PNSSHOGUN's very good rundown, I might buy both and sell the Rinji and keep the Tenshozan. The real question in all of this is if the pawn shop will actually play ball. They have $1500 Lugers they're trying to sell for $4000, so it may be that "I wouldn't take less than a thousand each" becomes $3000 each, which is technically not less than a thousand each, ha ha.  

Thank you also to @Bruce Pennington @ChrisW and @PNSSHOGUN. I really appreciate the input!

 

 

[mecox]

@Kaigunto230    Michael, did you look in NMB Downloads.....Japanese Naval Swords Part 2, has many examples.

[Kaigunto230]

7 minutes ago, mecox said:

@Kaigunto230    Michael, did you look in NMB Downloads.....Japanese Naval Swords Part 2, has many examples.

Thank you very much! I had downloaded the updated 2024 edition a few months back but hadn’t made time to dig through yet, until this morning! My toddler interrupted so I didn’t get as far as I wanted but tomorrow morning with some coffee, I’m going to keep digging! Those and your Kyushu books have been invaluable to me (and so many others), so thank you!

[Michaelr]

Michael, I would say go for it. I would if I had the opportunity. I think that $2000.00 for both is a Great Deal. If you have the money it would be foolish to leave one behind. If you don’t have the money and have to choose only one than go for the one that speaks to you. Good luck and let us know how it turns out. MikeR

[Kaigunto230]

Overall, swing and a miss. I went back to the shop with $2000 cash and probably would’ve paid that much. I started at $1300 for the pair, and he countered at $3000 and wouldn’t budge. I learned he’s had them for three years, so maybe he just doesn’t care to sell them; they’re not even displayed on the wall.
 

Frankly, $1500 each wouldn’t be a bad price at all, but I have a lot of other priorities going, so if I’m going to pay that much, I need to think about it more. I left my contact info for if he decides to drop his price at all. I figure those swords aren’t going anywhere. They’ve been there for years and probably will continue that way.

 

But, like every potential purchase, it’s an opportunity to handle a sword in hand, take reference photos for later, and learn more. And so I was happy to snag some additional photos. I’ll upload them below.

[Kaigunto230]

Sword 1 - February 1942

 

 

 

[Kaigunto230]

Sword 2 - Rinji with stuck mekugi

 

[Kaigunto230]

And lastly, this was especially fun, getting to study them for a second side by side. Sword 2 has a powerful, thick chu-kissaki as compared to Sword 1. The Rinji was longer and thicker generally as well. 
 

I don’t know enough about it, but I’d love a look from @PNSSHOGUN and @Conway S to see updated thoughts on this being a Takayama-to.

 

Regardless, I certainly enjoyed the sugata on the Rinji. But since I own a Rinji already, I’d love an early-war sword. So maybe I’ll just have to get both eventually  (if the pawn shop ever lets them out of their evil clutches, that is). Bummed to not have been able to close the deal yesterday, but I frankly didn’t have high hopes. I’ll have to do some thinking on paying $1500 each and see where we are in a few months. 
 

 

[Michaelr]

Michael, thank you for the follow up. To me both swords look to be in great condition. We All have a limit to our budgets and I have always found that when my budget is full, I don’t find anything that appeals to me BUT when my budget is at its lowest point I find a bunch of things to buy.  Just my opinion as I love Navies, I would probably try and find a way to come up with the extra gingle and go for them. Again just my opinion, I feel that after you got them both home, took the other one apart and had some learning time with them you could always get all your money back and maybe even make a little profit. The best part would be having the two together to compare and learn as you are already seeing the differences. Been there/ done that, decisions/decisions. Please keep us informed if you become their caretaker. I look forward to the opinions of the other more knowledgeable members here as this is also a great learning opportunity.  Good luck.   MikeR

[Conway S]

@Kaigunto230I didn’t realize the second sword had two haikan since the initial pictures only showed one. I wouldn’t categorize it as rinji based on the tsuka alone.

 

I’ve been to many pawn and gun stores where the owners don’t seem to like to money and it leads me to wonder how they stay in business.

 

I’m inclined to change my tune now that I see your latest photos of sword number two. 

[Bruce Pennington]

I got confused.  Is the thicker one also longer of the two?  Usually, Takayama-to are shorter than the norm.

[Rawa]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I got confused.  Is the thicker one also longer of the two?  Usually, Takayama-to are shorter than the norm.

I'm more confused about prices. Was 1k each and now it's 1,5k. You should convince seller not to worry about inflation and that after trade agreement dolar will recover shortly. 

[Kaigunto230]

4 hours ago, Conway S said:

@Kaigunto230I didn’t realize the second sword had two haikan since the initial pictures only showed one. I wouldn’t categorize it as rinji based on the tsuka alone.

 

I’ve been to many pawn and gun stores where the owners don’t seem to like to money and it leads me to wonder how they stay in business.

 

I’m inclined to change my tune now that I see your latest photos of sword number two. 

I made my case, gently arguing he's owned them for three years and they haven't sold and that I've got cash in hand (literally, in an envelope) and I'm ready to deal. He said, "I don't need cash, really." I wanted to ask what the point of running a store is then but held off. 

And gosh, I got so focused on the leather on the tsuka that I also missed the second hanger and just focused on it being a Rinji. Doh! The blades themselves had some scratching, but even at $1500, they're still attractive pieces. I'm intrigued by both and need to read up more about Takayama-to.

[Kaigunto230]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I got confused.  Is the thicker one also longer of the two?  Usually, Takayama-to are shorter than the norm.

Hmm, that's interesting. Yes, I think the thicker one with the chu-kissaski (Sword 2 above with the stuck mekugi) is longer. In the photos above, the blade looks longer but its blacker saya looks shorter than the redder saya belonging to the Tenshozan Tanrenjo sword. I'm pretty sure it was longer, but it's hard to remember.

On the suspected Takayama-to, the first time I picked it up, I do distinctly remember being surprised at the length of the tsuka. It very comfortably fit my two medium/large hands. I wonder if there are custom variations on Takayama-to made longer for taller Officers. Again, so much I would like to study more about them - measurements, getting the mekugi off in particular, and on and on.

[Kaigunto230]

11 hours ago, Michaelr said:

Michael, thank you for the follow up. To me both swords look to be in great condition. We All have a limit to our budgets and I have always found that when my budget is full, I don’t find anything that appeals to me BUT when my budget is at its lowest point I find a bunch of things to buy.  Just my opinion as I love Navies, I would probably try and find a way to come up with the extra gingle and go for them. Again just my opinion, I feel that after you got them both home, took the other one apart and had some learning time with them you could always get all your money back and maybe even make a little profit. The best part would be having the two together to compare and learn as you are already seeing the differences. Been there/ done that, decisions/decisions. Please keep us informed if you become their caretaker. I look forward to the opinions of the other more knowledgeable members here as this is also a great learning opportunity.  Good luck.   MikeR

Honestly, with them having sat there forever, there's a weaselly part of me that's already thinking about an early 2026 purchase, even at his full price. I certainly could do worse for the condition. And who knows, maybe he'll call me back and accept my best offer or at least haggle a bit/at all.

[Kaigunto230]

1 hour ago, Rawa said:

I'm more confused about prices. Was 1k each and now it's 1,5k. You should convince seller not to worry about inflation and that after trade agreement dolar will recover shortly. 

It went exactly as I thought it might but hoped it wouldn't. 

Me: "I'll give you $1300 for them."

Him: "No, I need $3000."

Me: "What?? You said $2000 last week." 

Him: "Welllllll, I said I couldn't take less than $1000 each, so I'm not." 

He's got me there.....  

[Hokke]

If this was an experienced pawnbroker with the requisite skills for that type of business, he knew the hook was set when you started snapping pictures. The fact that he told you he "doesn't need cash" may indicate he has no inclination to give *you* a deal. I dont know what exactly you said to him or how you said it, but you may very well have been hit with what we called a "douche bag tax". Your best play here is one of two things, pay the asking price, or wait a couple of months and send SOMEONE else in to buy these swords for hopefully less than what he is asking from you.