Weapon Scavenging

[Hokke]

Im curious about the history of weapon scavenging. Specifically during the waring era like the sengoku, where after a battle the field would be littered with the weapons of the fallen. Is there any recorded history on if these weapons were collected and by whom. Would samurai take these weapons as spoils of war? Since samurai wealth was on a spectrum it seems logical one would be on the look out for equipment made of better quality than one may already own. Considering the cost of swords and polearms, it seems likely all weapons would be collected if for nothing other than their resale value. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

There are many stories of villagers and peasants roaming the battlefields to scavenge weapons, armour, and other valuables from the dead. Not sure about Samurai themselves, but many warriors were pretty destitute during the Sengoku Jidai. Perhaps someone like @Markus Sesko could shed some light on the topic? 

[Rawa]

Wasn't there a part in Akira Kurosawa's "Shichinin no samurai" about collecting dead soldiers weapons? 

[Baka Gaijin]

The plotline of the 1964 film Onibaba depicts two women scavenging weapons and armour:

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Musashi by Yoshikawa Eiji also features battlefield looting at the start. 

[Hokke]

Wow, a relatively unknown subject.......interesting. 

 

Let's assume for a moment that samurai were reluctant or forbidden to collect weapons from the battlefield. If this was the case, certainly it would've been just as taboo to purchase second hand weapons from merchants since it would be widely known that many of them were scavenged, right?  Unless of course there was a loophole. 

Everyone knew the weapons weren't newly forged and likely came as a result of scavenging, but it was one of the first versions of "dont ask, dont tell".  I have a problem with this version just based on the economics, since it's hard to believe a samurai would rather pay money for something that could have been claimed for free. That said, the Japanese do have a quite rigid social construct to this day, so anything is possible. 

 

As a separate curiosity, regardless if weapons were collected and resold or if they were collected and disposed of, we are talking about A LOT of weapons here over the centuries.  Ive not seen anything suggesting weapons were repurposed, in great numbers, into other implements like farm tools or art. They wouldn't have been melted down or refined.  We can safely assume the weapons that remain today are only a fraction of the total number that were ever produced. So what happened to all those lost in time? Is it possible there are large pits of disposed weapons that remain undiscovered? Perhaps they were dumped into the sea since it was known salt water would quickly corrode them away?

 

So many threads to pull on.......

[Markus]

You may also want to look into this practice:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochimusha

 

 

[Rawa]

Was there any ritual to cleanse those weapons?

[Brian]

There is a thread or article somewhere on this forum somewhere about this. I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember that it was general practice after a battle for a team to go out and collect weapons. I don't think there was any negative aspect to it, it was routine and part of the battle strategy. I suspect it was a vital part of the cleaning up after a battle and done with the collecting of the bodies etc.

[Bugyotsuji]

This is such a huge subject that I am reluctant to get involved. 

 

Suffice it to say that the Mongols collected every last scrap of iron from their battlefields.

Bushi would often leave money inside their armour to help pay for disposal and funerary rites, etc. if they were killed in battle.

The problem in Japan was that battlefield weaponry might find its way into the hands of the peasantry.

Feudal lords would designate merchants to clean up the battlefield, and to sort out what could be salvaged and what could be scrapped. Conversely, merchants would vie to get such contracts from the Daimyo. Cheaply-mended weapons were then sold on cheaply to the less wealthy Daimyo.

Hideyoshi ordered huge national round-ups of weapons, in order to keep them from anyone who might be tempted to revolt.

There were continued round-ups through Tokugawa times and on into Meiji.

Essentially, Japan's governing bodies wished to maintain tight control over possible causes of unrest.

Unlike in the west, battlefield clean-ups were the norm, and cleanliness and detailed bureaucracy still generally rule today.

[ChrisW]

So I have something interesting to contribute to this thread.

This is a tsuba which I believe was on a sword that was dropped on the battlefield and later recovered. As you can see there is a sharp contrast to the rates of corrosion on both sides, which align with the idea that it was dropped and sank into soft ground which resulted in what you see now:

 

[ChrisW]

And the other side:

[Bugyotsuji]

Interesting idea, Chris!

[Joseph P.]

5 hours ago, ChrisW said:

So I have something interesting to contribute to this thread.

This is a tsuba which I believe was on a sword that was dropped on the battlefield and later recovered. As you can see there is a sharp contrast to the rates of corrosion on both sides, which align with the idea that it was dropped and sank into soft ground which resulted in what you see now:

 

It's a nice tsuba Chris. Brings to mind something else more prevalent in the firearm community, called "blood pitting". Blood contains salt (?) which if left unchecked, can lead to rapid rust and decay. It is possible the tsuba had been grabbed by a bloody hand, or maybe laid on the ground for a while after a battle and was picked up and simply wiped off. Of course this is all just speculation. 

[John C]

The stereograph pic is a street-side sword salesman during the Edo period. Just another possiblity for the disposition of collected swords. The pic is from a book called Photography in Japan found here (I apologize if this has been shared before):

https://archive.org/details/photography-in-Japan-1853-1912-by-terry-bennett-z-lib.org

 

The book has many pics of samurai who wanted a record of their kit prior to the Meiji restoration and ban on samurai/sword carrying. 

 

John C.

[Rivkin]

Almost in all cases in the world where you have a sword supposedly taken from some defeated general, if there is detailed information about it, turns out by the time commanders decided "oh, it would be nice to collect a few blades to present them as sign of our victory", everything slightly worthy has already been cleaned out (Tipu Sultan's swords being a good example) and the only way to obtain a presentable piece was either from a guarded and locked arsenal (if such existed) or you simply had to buy one from one of the traders who followed the army. It is actually not at all uncommon that the bought sword was clearly not carried by the enemy - but was simply the nicest one a seller had on hand.

 

Nice koshirae with a long sword would not remain sticking around from the ground for long. Especially since it has not been really a Japanese tradition to present defeated men's sword (though surrendering a sword was normal), you could keep it for yourself, what you had to do is cut off the head, take the helmet, and then present the pair.

What you see consistently in Nanbokucho period letters is if you wanted something more than participation award you had to either charge first or kill someone important, and it had to be witnessed. 

So you waited until you see someone on your side in a fancy helmet (potential witness) and then hoped to get a fancy helmet from the other side.

So for a leader there was an obligation to wear a fancy helmet or otherwise people would simply not move.

Conversely, everyone with a collected helmeted head insisted this was enemy's general, so many well known people were "killed" over and over, sometimes even displayed headwise at the same time on different bridges.

And people committed to taking a head in battle would often paint their faces or their hair to make it easier for witnesses to confirm. "Kabuki" has some very unusual roots, but again you actually see this tradition now and then in other parts of the world as well.

 

Disposal of bodies and final scavenging was however a different matter. Something until rather late if organized, done by "unclean" castes, tanners and others who lived next to rivers in larger cities. They also served as executioners during Nanbokucho, as pre-Muromachi it was considered an unclean, non-Buddhist profession.

They also prepared heads for display, supposedly the neck had to be arranged in a certain way. 

 

There are couple of nice Ph.d. works on the subject - thankfully Japanese is one of a few traditions that is quite document and literature based. By comparison if you take Persian or Ottoman or Indian sources, usually it simply ends to great confusion.

[Hoshi]

Quote

 

So you waited until you see someone on your side in a fancy helmet (potential witness) and then hoped to get a fancy helmet from the other side.

So for a leader there was an obligation to wear a fancy helmet or otherwise people would simply not move.

 

 

The game theory on this is interesting...

 

 

 

 

[Hokke]

8 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

.........The problem in Japan was that battlefield weaponry might find its way into the hands of the peasantry.

Feudal lords would designate merchants to clean up the battlefield, and to sort out what could be salvaged and what could be scrapped. Conversely, merchants would vie to get such contracts from the Daimyo. Cheaply-mended weapons were then sold on cheaply to the less wealthy Daimyo.

Hideyoshi ordered huge national round-ups of weapons, in order to keep them from anyone who might be tempted to revolt.

There were continued round-ups through Tokugawa times and on into Meiji.

Thanks for posting Piers, controlling the number of weapons in an attempt to prevent rebellion makes perfect sense.

My question to everyone remains, what did "they" (the Japanese, regardless of position) do with them all, scrapped or not? For those which were scrapped, how was this accomplished? Were they melted down, were they cut up? Where were the pieces disposed, land or sea? Are there and items found in Japan that may have made with scrap tamahagane in antiquity? One would imagine that perhaps the steel was later used in the manufacture of firearms, is this possible?

Has anyone ever made an attempt to estimate the number of just swords produced over 800 years because we have to be talking about lots of metal compared to what is left in the modern day. When you add in yari and naginata......thats seems like a lot of steel 

[Rawa]

Making swords was expensive. Good swords were never thrown away. Pre edo times I'm sure reforging was common practice to strenghten damaged blades after battle just to have enough weapons able to cut. Knowing nihonjin nothing went to waste.

[Tim Evans]

We also need to consider when. During the Sengoku period, there were the Ikko and Ikki, which were large peasant self defense organizations that made their own edged weapons and firearms. These groups were large enough and militarized enough to challenge the authority and territory of the Daimyo. One would assume they were not too fastidious about scavenging battlefields. Oda Nobunaga destroyed many of the Ikko/Ikki, with Toyotomi  Hideyoshi finishing the job. Hideyoshi issued an edict in 1587 called "the great sword hunt" to forcibly disarm all non-samurai. The excuse given that that the swords were to be used to make nails for a huge statue of the Buddha, which would bring peace in the present and salvation in the future. Most likely the real reason was to prevent reformation of the ikko/ikki organizations.

 

A reference if you would like to know more.

https://www.amazon.com/War-State-Building-Medieval-Japan/dp/0804763704

 

There are also a number of books by Stephen Turnbull that cover the Sengoku period. 

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=stephen+turnbull&i=stripbooks&crid=1F4Z0QACCP86S&sprefix=stephen+turnbull+%2Cstripbooks%2C181&ref=nb_sb_noss_2