Tsuba Opinions

[cluckdaddy76]

Sorry for the low quality pics, but these were from a recent auction that ended, these are just screenshots. This tsuba ended up selling for roughly  140,000 yen plus fees, so I am guessing  the lucky ( or perhaps I should say unlucky) winner will end up paying close to 165,000 by the time fees and shipping kick in. This  question is for learning purposes, but I have concerns since I have been studying. One thing I notice is that the sekigane seems to be fake. It has been colored to look like older copper, but you also see bright newer copper inside the nakago ana. Then when you look closer , you realize there is no sekigane, it is simply part of the tsuba plate. I also do not like the nanako work, it does not look quite right to me. The other work too is also not great quality once you look close enough. I am just trying to home my eye and keep learning, so am I correct this is a modern cast piece of some kind or am I mistaken?

[cluckdaddy76]

Just a second close up pic.

[cluckdaddy76]

Just a second close up pic.

[Jesta]

I am sure that Dale will have some examples, but I have not seen any obvious fakes with nanako looking that clean. This is especially true of pieces where the nanako goes over a rounded mimi. It may be possible to cast something like this, but so far every attempt I have seen at mass-produced nanako has ended up with muddy and relatively large nanako, which don’t look convincing. 

 

The figures and clouds are too low-res for me to make any other comment, except to say that to my eye they look ok.

 

The changes in colour in the sekigane are likely to have been caused when the piece was removed from the blade. The friction would have scraped any patina off. 

[cluckdaddy76]

I am trying to post the link but have somehow lost it and was not following the auction. My concern is that there is no actual sekigane, in the pics of the posting you can clearly see that is just part of the tsuba base plate that has been colored and not an actual piece of metal which was set in there. I may have saved the link on my iPad and will try to upload once I am home from work either later tonight or tomorrow.

 

Jason

[Jesta]

I think that on some of the higher end pieces the sekigane was applied very carefully, and even smoothed back to blend with the main body of the tsuba. I have a couple of examples of this, one with the sekigane in place (but you can clearly see that they are copper and not coloured parts of the main body), and one with the carefully carved spaces for the sekigane left unfilled (shot upside down so that you can see it clearly).

 

Looking at these it appears that the smith (or person who out the tsuba onto a blade) had carefully carved spaces for the sekigane (rather than just chopped the usual holes we see so often) into the nakago-ana. These were then filled with copper, and then the copper was carefully ground back to a smooth finish, and fit with the tsuba. 

[cluckdaddy76]

I really hope I can find the link. On your example you can see on the bottom right of the nakago ana that the copper sticks out a tiny bit, it is not completely flush. I wish the pic of my example of the top of the nakago ana was clear when you zoom in, you can tell it is just coloration on the Tsuba plate, there is no copper added here at all even though you see the coloration.I just do not understand why someone would try to make it look like sekigane when there appears to be none on this piece.

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, Jesta said:

carefully carved spaces for the sekigane

Kuchibeni - 口紅  -   A speciality of the Suruga school [not the same school as the tsuba in question]. This school is known for 'kuchibeni' or copper sekigane at the top and bottom of the nakago-ana which were placed at time of creation and are not a sign of refitting (kantei point). These were also seen in the later Edo work of the Tanaka School. Those on Jason's example look untouched (rare) and an indication that this piece was fitted only once to it's original sword. 

As I hope you can see from this slightly grainy image the Kuchibeni were installed in the nakago-ana before it left the tsubaco. Kuchibeni are generally a mark of good quality pieces and like this image they were often fitted with no gaps or protrusions. I also agree with Justyn that the nanako-ji is far too good to be cast.

  https://jameelcentre.ashmolean.org/collection/7/10237/10353  Check the kuchibeni on many of these Suruga school pieces - they are often altered later to fit other blades.

 

There are indeed many fake or "reproduction" tsuba with fake sekigane but very few with Kuchibeni - Why? well they want the sekigane 'noticed' and good Kuchibeni would be almost invisible if it were the same colour as the rest of the guard.

 

 

[cluckdaddy76]

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Dale, I see different versions of the tsuba you posted all the time as well as other modern fakes, the dancing skunk has also been mentioned here recently. This tsuba I was studying had me skeptical due to me seeing bright plain copper shining through in spots. I thought shakudo plates would be the same as shibuichi plates and be solid and the same color. Even with the pics in this thread, let us look at Justyn's example around the outside of the nakago ana. It is solid black. You can see on the example I posted that on the outside of the nakago ana there is bright copper starting to come through around almost the whole left side (pics 2&3). This is what lead me to believe that this may have been painted or am I incorrect that shakudo plates are just plain copper on the inside? 

 

Jason

[Ian B3HR2UH]

A collector out here had a good looking daisho pair in " shakudo " nanako with mon on them . To me, on a cursory inspection , they looked good but he submitted them to shinsa and they failed being rejected as modern cast pieces . The coloring on the clouds of this piece looks odd to me .

Ian Brooks

[cluckdaddy76]

I wish I saved the link so everyone could see better resolution photos. I am lucky as I have a job that usually allows me to do some visual studying every day and this one raised flags for me last week. Dale mentioned kuchibeni that a couple schools did, but to me this looked like it is simply trying to copy that look. The supposed top sekigane on the one I provided is absolutely just colored, unfortunately my current photos are not high res enough to show it.  I also looked at Dale's link of other kuchibeni pieces and their sekigane that is set is all the same color. The one I posted makes it look like older copper on the outside, maybe even trying to be raw copper, but inside the nakago ana it is bright shiny copper, almost looks brand new.  

 

Jason

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, cluckdaddy76 said:

inside the nakago ana it is bright shiny copper, almost looks brand new.  

Give it a few months and it may darken up. It doesn't take much to scratch the patina off copper which is what I think has happened. 

As Justyn has pointed out  "The changes in colour in the sekigane are likely to have been caused when the piece was removed from the blade. The friction would have scraped any patina off."   Speculation on our part of course as we don't have it in hand. 

[Matsunoki]

9 hours ago, cluckdaddy76 said:

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Dale, I see different versions of the tsuba you posted all the time as well as other modern fakes, the dancing skunk has also been mentioned here recently. This tsuba I was studying had me skeptical due to me seeing bright plain copper shining through in spots. I thought shakudo plates would be the same as shibuichi plates and be solid and the same color. Even with the pics in this thread, let us look at Justyn's example around the outside of the nakago ana. It is solid black. You can see on the example I posted that on the outside of the nakago ana there is bright copper starting to come through around almost the whole left side (pics 2&3). This is what lead me to believe that this may have been painted or am I incorrect that shakudo plates are just plain copper on the inside? 

Shakudo is an alloy which before patination looks like copper in colour. It is not a solid block of black metal. When patinated it will form an oxide on the surface that basically looks black. If the patina is then worn, scratched or in any other way damaged the base colour of “copper” will show through including within the nakago-ana or on highlight areas etc

Copper on the other hand does not patinated to black, in fact it is the most difficult metal to get a good solid patina on and any patina on copper is easily abraded.

This tsuba simply looks to have nice quality copper sekigane perfectly and carefully fitted into a tsuba with a plate made of a shakudo type alloy. The actual tsuba itself is of modest quality.

Personally I can’t see any mystery here.

[Exclus1ve]

A normal medium-quality tsuba. The sekigane also looks fine, and nanako fits neatly against the inlay.

[rkg]

Not meaning to threadjack, but there is an interesting piece up for auction on YJ right now if you are a student of sekigane/kuchibeni.

 

Here is the auction for a Tanaka/Touryuusai tsuba that has seen better days:

 

https://sendico.com/shop/ayahoo/catalog/p1185822689

 

Here is a picture I lifted from the auction to put here for posterity.  I am doing this for educational purposes only and I am not the owner of the image:

 

The tanaka school guys had this peculiar sekigane that nobody currently knows how to replicate.  On this piece, the sekigane are gone but the places they went are still mostly intact so you can see how they were put in (the cutout in the surface, divots to aid in holding them in, etc).

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Jake6500]

I had seen this listing before it ended and hard passed on it, not because I thought the tsuba was fake but mainly because I didn't like the style or quality enough to bid on it.

 

As has been said already the nanako look quite good which indicates it is likely authentic. The copper in the sekigane is an interesting observation but not enough of a reason to conclude the tsuba is a modern fake. At least, not in my view.

[Curran]

A marred Tanaka is a marred Tanaka.

Not of interest to me, so I understand the -hard pass-

 

However, it is a good example of a Tanaka missing something that is normally a major kantei point for Tanaka school?

Why stripped out??? We won't know, but the skeletal remains of the seppa dai shape and cut are educational.

 

I'd learn from the photo and run.

[cluckdaddy76]

Thanks for all the help, but I was just studying this one and did not bid (also not my taste), so this mystery will never be solved. I am just getting confident enough to attempt an auction or two and just trying to learn about the "better" fakes out in the world. Colin, thank you for explaining shakudo, I was under the impression it was a solid color plate. My biggest concern was the sekigane, I also learned something here as well so once again thanks for the replies. 

 

Jason

[lonely panet]

Its still on jauce for sale

[Spartancrest]

19 minutes ago, lonely panet said:

Its still on jauce for sale

https://www.jauce.com/auction/p1185822689  From the bidding someone likes it! Interesting to see how high it gets. 

[lonely panet]

Somethings go for stupid prices. Sometimes stuff goes under the radar 

[cluckdaddy76]

Here is another common reproduction for sale, it seems most people are aware of this style, I saw one some months back go for over $300 USD, but the others have gone for much less. 

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1186344504

 

Jason

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, cluckdaddy76 said:

Jason

https://www.jauce.com/auction/1186608762 why pay for the cheap one when people can get ripped off for even more money! 

I have seen these selling in the past for $800 USD - Now that is organised crime!  

 

What past!!  Still selling at over the top prices on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/355132266401  US $1,108.54 - you do get a box!

 

 

Recent sale https://buyee.jp/item/jdirectitems/auction/r1000252521?lang=en  = $308 USD  1 bidder, poor sod! 

 

https://www.thierrydemaigret.com/lot/22009/4944605-tsuba-en-fer-a-fond-martele-de-kanji-a-decor-en-haut-relief?  = $1237.05 USD, an even poorer sod! Where do I send my condolences?

 

It doesn't seem to change peoples buying habits, they don't do basic research and still believe the seller's every word.  How hard is it today to do an image search? 

[Curran]

Yeah.... I've always struggled with why people buy the one with the guy looking like a drunk Dionysus.

[JohnTo]

I sometimes see copper sekigane with a black lacquer finish to blend in with the tsuba.  This looks like what may have happened on the lower one, but resolution poor to be sure.  The clouds on this tsuba are probably shakudo, but the patination on the high parts has worn away showing the unpatinated colour of copper underneath.  IMHO an average piece in a worn condition and well overpriced at about $1000.

 

Best regards, John