Gunome Posted April 17 Report Share Posted April 17 Hello, The mei of this wakizashi is Tsuda Echizen no kami Sukehiro. For me, when I compare with books, the mei looks good with nidai oshigata. As it is a big name with lot of gimei, I would like to have your opinion on this one. Thanks Sébastien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2devnul Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 Hi, I don't want to be sceptic, but if I'm comparing it to the right Sukehiro then Mei looks totally different. Can you show the rest of the blade? From what I read Nidai Sukehiro was famous for this Choji/Gunome Hamon variation. What do you have on your blade? Link to AOI: https://sword-auctio...ehiro2nd-generation/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 You can't compare two signatures when they're engraved in different styles. That said, it's gimei. Same year 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihonto student Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 Dear Sebastien, Sukehiro nidai started to inscribe his signature in square style (Kakudome) then change to cursive style (Sosho) from 1674 if I remember correctly. I'm not aware of the existence of hybrid signatures as it should be in your case, but if I had to bet I'd say it's gimei. Regards, Giordy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 18 Author Report Share Posted April 18 Hello, Thanks for your replies. Indeed it was his early work, when it didn't write in sosho style yet. The blade is in suguha I will post photos of the oshigata I have. Jacques, for me your oshigata matchs the mei of my nakago, and also yasurime and nakago jiri. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2devnul Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 I didn't know he changed Mei style, my bad and thank you for the lesson. Sebastien, for me Mei also looks legit, but I had same challenge with my Tadayoshi (one of mine topics) where most of comments stated Gimei. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihonto student Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 For me the fundamental point concerns the character Tsuda 津 (Name of his family) that he will add when changing style, before his signature in kakudome only reports Echizen (no) Kami Sukehiro. But I will be happy to be proven wrong if someone reports a certified example . Giordy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 18 Author Report Share Posted April 18 Here are the oshigata I have in Nihonto Zuikan (not in sosho style). To support my opinion, when I look at these oshigata and compare, I see that Sukehiro did suguha. The yasurime, nakago jiri, place of the mei on the nakago, the style of the mei style and kanji itselves matches. Howerver, when it come to big names like Tadayoshi or others, we need to be cautious. That's why any opinions are welcome. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 Sébastien That's because you're not looking at the right things - the devil is in the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 Another one with the same date 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2devnul Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 Well ... I can see some small differences, but we need to keep in mind it is not that they were curving these Mei with laser+computer. Also, there are live examples where you could see such slight differences in Mei on two 'papered' blades, so... I'm not talking about this specific smith, but in general. Anyway, Sebastien, you will probably end up with suggestions to send the sword for Shinsa, which is reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 18 Author Report Share Posted April 18 Hello Jacques, Many thanks for pointing out the detail to look on the nakago. I need to double check on the blade itself. the nakago is rusty and I wonder if some strokes are not hiden by the rust. I appology for the poor quality of my photos, not helped with the cloudy weather. I check and come back to you. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihonto student Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 In the meantime I had the opportunity to back home and I also find some example you post (Never stop to learn :)) however some stroke in your blade do not convince me, but Jacques anticipated me, pointing out the differences as best.The fact that the signatures can have small differences? Yes but IMHO in this case they seem a bit too many and evident and considering that we are talking about one of the best "aesthetes" of the Shinto period it makes you think...even the inclination and spacing of the characters don't seem perfect. It would also be interesting to know if it's a blade for sale/bought from Japan or found in the attic so to speak... Sukehiro without paper is already strange...Shinsa? Of course... but I would not send it to Japan because is not in prenestine polish...so polish + all other costs for me no worth the risk in this case, I would bring it to some show to be evaluated by many before thinking of spending the money. Giordy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted April 18 Report Share Posted April 18 Are you actually looking at the signatures, or believing what you want? A cat is a dog if one believes it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 18 Author Report Share Posted April 18 Some additionnal photos that allow to better see the kanji. Giordy, the blade is from an old french collection. So not coming from Japan without papers. I don't contemplate to send to shinsa. I won't hassel with the shipping and export documentations, and as you said, before a shinsa it means polish. John, some sword are obviously gimei, on other we can have a doubt. For me this mei looks closely to the oshigata. They are not 100% same as oshigata, but you also have difference between 2 oshigata. Looking at the oshigata as a whole, I think this one is close. And I confess that both the state of the nagako with rust and the quality of photo don't' help for an opinion. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted April 19 Report Share Posted April 19 Beautiful photos. BaZZa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkirkpatrick Posted April 19 Report Share Posted April 19 I love the sugata, looks like a very strong stout sword. I know not in polish but what you can see do think jigane/hamon/boshi supports such an attribution? I feel like the mei flow is really good but hard to ignore Jacque’s adroit observations. Can you tell us more about the work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihonto student Posted April 19 Report Share Posted April 19 Agree..the flow is not bad is a good attempt, but please look at the position of the first kanji on both sides respect to the ana, in all examples the Kanji starting position is extraordinarily identical and the ana just touches the shinogi...in the blade in question the Tsuda character starts well below the ana then on the other side in the examples the stroke follows the curve of the ana finishing itself below (Very elegant) demonstrating the clear intention of preserving the kanji from the ana, in the blade in question the position of the kanji is wrong, the ana surpasses the shinogi and affects the kanji. PS: don't know about you but analyzing the examples I was moved by the precision and elegance of Sukehiro, what a great artist . I discovered hot water? no I only bow before such beauty. Giordy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 19 Author Report Share Posted April 19 Hello, Detailled photos of the mei has been done with my smartphone ! Luckily, there was a sunshine at this moment. Please find below few more pics. Very hard to do good pics of a sword, moreover with a bad polish. Hope you can see something. The hamon is suguha with nice nie. The hada is a tight itame. We can see it at the ha machi area that what more or less protected by the habaki. Unfortunately this area is very small. Giordy, you are right for the mei position in relation to the ana. When we look closely at this part, I am not sure the present mekugi ana is the original one. We can see another one that has been filled (red arrow on the pic). I guess it is the original ana. If we consider it as the original, then the 1st kanji start at the right place. If you like Sukehiro work, please also have a look at Sukenao, and Suketaka in shinshinto that make utsushi Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted April 19 Report Share Posted April 19 Are there any kesho yasurime ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihonto student Posted April 20 Report Share Posted April 20 9 hours ago, Gunome said: Don't know if it is a filled ana, a failed attempt or just a sign... but in any case why should it have changed compared to the other examples? there is no apparent reason... To many things do not convince me but this is just my opinion Sebastien take it as such, as I already said take it to someone to see anyway... there have been cases in which I would have gambled the house that a signature was real only to then have to change my mind... over time you become more critical... assuming it is authentic it is still worth making an economic reasoning if you think about a restoration + certification, keeping in mind that Sukehiro's works in suguha are very less valued than an opera in toranba (Sukehiro made beautiful suguha but this is the market). Giordy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaris Posted April 20 Report Share Posted April 20 Even if it is not authentic, would it be worth the restorations because pf artistic and historic values? I mean, is the smith's work worth enough if the mei is not genuine? I think it is, but I'm no expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 20 Author Report Share Posted April 20 Hello, Yes, kesho yarusime at the top of the nakago, on both side. Thanks for your opinion Giordy. Don't worry, all opinions are welcome. Usually ana are filled with soft metal : brass, copper or lead. Quitte strange that some are filled with iron. I saw only few, should be more complexe to implement ?! I assume it is not from swordswmith but done later when the owner change its koshirae. You are right, suguha is not its more desirable work and then not the more valued. For the moment I do not expect to have it polished in a near future, neither papered. Just wanted opinion about what it could be or not. Best Sébastien 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihonto student Posted April 21 Report Share Posted April 21 12 hours ago, Gunome said: Hello, Yes, kesho yarusime at the top of the nakago, on both side. Thanks for your opinion Giordy. Don't worry, all opinions are welcome. Usually ana are filled with soft metal : brass, copper or lead. Quitte strange that some are filled with iron. I saw only few, should be more complexe to implement ?! I assume it is not from swordswmith but done later when the owner change its koshirae. You are right, suguha is not its more desirable work and then not the more valued. For the moment I do not expect to have it polished in a near future, neither papered. Just wanted opinion about what it could be or not. Best Sébastien As Doug said check the swords by your self to find key elements: Expected: high mune (Steep oroshi) Dense ko-itame, plentiful ji nie,sugu- yakidashi, notare or notare like elements are always present in his interpretation of suguha. Giordy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 22 Author Report Share Posted April 22 Hello, The blade has a little high mune and a deep iori mune. Hamon is suguha, not a notare. Hada is dense ko itame but not really able to see the ji nie due to bad polish condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihonto student Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Here a good example to compare: Signature: we've already discussed this extensively, I'll just point out how the "Kami" character is significantly different from your blade, "the hat" is wider and more uniform with a less pronounced curve and on both sides the strokes tend to be inclined and not straight (As all other examples), some variations are however present in this signature. Sugata: the blade has slight sori and taper from the monouchi area, your blade is more curved without taper, also note the high mune. From Sesko kantei:"At Sukehiro and his students for example, the shinogi is usually extremely low so that it sometimes even seems optically as if the blade thins from the mune to the shinogi. Hamon: From the photos I don't see notare elements but a variation in height is clearly visible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 Hello Giordy, Many thanks for all these information and for the blade in example 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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