Wakizashi genuine signature/mei?

[VRGC]

Firstly, hi I’m new to the group!

Recently I purchased this Wakizashi at auction.

Here’s what I know

Estimated Period: 1603-1868 (Edo Period)

Material: Tamahagane

Overall length: 61.7 cm

Signature: 神田住兼(*)-Kanda ju Ka

from what I can make out 神田住兼常 (Kanda ju Kanetsune)

Has a certificate (torokusho) from Japan

Estimated value by expert €500 - €700

 

I’m mostly curious to know if the mei is genuine. I have gather some 神田住兼常 (Kanda ju Kanetsune) signatures myself to compare, I will add them to the post aswell.

Thanks!

 

[Franco D]

Comments;

 

Will leave it to others regarding the mei.

 

Red rust (on the nakago and tsuba) is active rust, and should be properly and carefully addressed. 

Use the search feature on NMB to find previous discussions on rust and sword care. 

 

Fuchi, worm wood?

Menuki, hawk feather?

 

Regards

[Paz]

Hi there and welcome to the forums. 

 

I beleive this is katana as its over 60cm. O suriage. 

 

I cant see the polish up close, but from what I do see. It doesn't seem bad for the price. 

 

Il let someone with more experience with kanetsune examine the mei. Seems tachi mei. But I could be wrong. 

 

Kind regards 

Paz

[VRGC]

9 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Comments;

 

Will leave it others regarding the mei.

 

Red rust (on the nakago and tsuba) is active rust, and should be properly and carefully addressed. 

Use the search feature on NMB to find previous discussions on rust and sword care. 

 

Fuchi, worm wood?

Menuki, hawk feather?

 

Regards

Thanks for that, I am currently in the process of receiving it from Japan. Once it arrives, I will make sure to take care of that!

[Franco D]

16 minutes ago, Paz said:

I beleive this is katana as its over 60cm. O suriage.

 

No and no. 

 

Overall length: 61.7 cm

 

Nakago appears to be ubu.

 

Regards,

[Paz]

12 minutes ago, Franco D said:

 

No and no. 

 

Overall length: 61.7 cm

 

Nakago looks ubu.

 

Regards,

 

Sorry, you're correct on ubu. Not suriage. 

 

But doesn't over 60 cm mean katana ? Rather than o wakizashi? 

 

 

[VRGC]

11 minutes ago, Paz said:

 

Sorry, you're correct on ubu. Not suriage. 

 

But doesn't over 60 cm mean katana ? Rather than o wakizashi? 

 

 

The torokusho states it was registered as wakizashi

[Franco D]

9 minutes ago, Paz said:

But doesn't over 60 cm mean katana ? Rather than o wakizashi? 

 

61.7 cm = 24.291 inches. Overall length includes the nakago. The nakago is surely long enough to make the sugata less than 24 inches.

 

Regards,

[Paz]

11 minutes ago, Franco D said:

 

61.7 cm = 24.291 inches. Overall length includes the nakago. The nakago is surely long enough to make the sugata less than 24 inches.

 

Regards,

😬 my mistake just re read it. Thanks Franco. 

[Franco D]

Welcome, no worries.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Paz said:

Seems tachi mei.

Nope. it’s Katana Mei.

[VRGC]

1 hour ago, VRGC said:

Thanks for that, I am currently in the process of receiving it from Japan. Once it arrives, I will make sure to take care of that!

 

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

Comments;

 

Will leave it to others regarding the mei.

 

Red rust (on the nakago and tsuba) is active rust, and should be properly and carefully addressed. 

Use the search feature on NMB to find previous discussions on rust and sword care. 

 

Fuchi, worm wood?

Menuki, hawk feather?

 

Regards

Hi Franco,

This is what I read about the tang.. So I can't do anything to the red rust on it?:

Do not under any circumstances do ANYTHING to the tang (nakago) of the sword. This is one of the most critical areas of the sword when it comes to identification. ANY ALTERATION of the tang - any cleaning, rust removal, anything at all MUST BE AVOIDED. If the tang is altered, it can make identification nearly impossible and can reduce the value of the sword by half!!

[Franco D]

Hello Victor,

 

The nakago should indeed not be cleaned!

 

What I do in the case of red rust on the nakago.

In the beginning, using only your (clean, dry) fingers apply a coating of sword oil onto the nakago allowing it soak in for about a minute or two. Then, using a soft clean absorbent chem free cloth blot (do not rub) the oil off, such that you're only leaving a very thin film of oil on the nakago denying the red rust access to oxygen and moisture. This process is to be repeated, using less and less oil, on a daily > then, semi-daily > then weekly basis until you can visibly see the red rust turn into black rust. Which is what you want. Any thicker or heavier rust will generally flake off in this process. In the end it should be barely visible/detectable that any oil remains. 

 

When in doubt ask!

 

Regards,

 

[VRGC]

10 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Hello Victor,

 

The nakago should indeed not be cleaned!

 

What I do in the case of red rust on the nakago.

In the beginning using only your (clean, dry) fingers apply a coating of sword oil onto the nakago allowing it soak in for about a minute or two.

Then, using a soft clean absorbent chem free cloth blot (do not rub) the oil off, such that you're only leaving a very thin film of oil on the nakago denying the red rust access to oxygen and moisture. This process is to be repeated, using less and less oil, on daily > semi-daily > weekly basis until you can visibly see the red rust turn into black rust. Which is what you want. Any thicker or heavier rust will generally flake off in this process. In the end it should be barely visible/detectable that any oil remains. 

 

When in doubt ask!

 

Regards,

 

Thanks, I appreciate the instructions, I will definilty ask!

[ROKUJURO]

Victor,

the MEI could perhaps read KANETADA, but I am not a sword guy and have no books to compare.

The TOROKUSHO is not a certificate of authenticity, but just a registration paper issued by the government.

In case you want to post more photos, please take care of the correct orientation
 

-  NAKAGO photos with tip (KISSAKI) pointing upwards

-- no hardware on the blade

-  photos taken directly from above

-  with light from the side

-  well focused

-  against a dark background to get a good contrast

-  preferably presented as cut-out so nothing is distracting from the item

 

 

[VRGC]

11 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Victor,

the MEI could perhaps read KANETADA, but I am not a sword guy and have no books to compare.

The TOROKUSHO is not a certificate of authenticity, but just a registration paper issued by the government.

In case you want to post more photos, please take care of the correct orientation
 

-  NAKAGO photos with tip (KISSAKI) pointing upwards

-- no hardware on the blade

-  photos taken directly from above

-  with light from the side

-  well focused

-  against a dark background to get a good contrast

-  preferably presented as cut-out so nothing is distracting from the item

 

 

Hi Rokujuro,

 

These pictures are from the seller unfortunately.. when it’s in my hands I’ll remember that.

 

thanks 

 

Victor 

[VRGC]

On 4/2/2024 at 5:58 PM, Franco D said:

Comments;

 

Will leave it to others regarding the mei.

 

Red rust (on the nakago and tsuba) is active rust, and should be properly and carefully addressed. 

Use the search feature on NMB to find previous discussions on rust and sword care. 

 

Fuchi, worm wood?

Menuki, hawk feather?

 

Regards

Hi Franco,

 

Any idea who within this group would be able to help me with the authenticity of the mei? I haven’t had much input from the community regarding this point. I’m curious if anyone has some input! Thanks 
 

kind regards 

 

Victor 

[Franco D]

Hello Victor,

 

1 hour ago, VRGC said:

Any idea who within this group would be able to help me with the authenticity of the mei?

 

Of course, when it comes to mei verification the answer is "shinsa."

However, with some patience perhaps one of the good folks here will chime in with an opinion?   

 

Regards

 

"The sword confirms the mei and not the other way around."

 

 

p.s. The importance of a library when it comes to nihonto collecting cannot be overstated. As a collector your homework should have already been well on its way to researching the object of your desire, and I'm not talking about only the mei, before completing the sale. Of course the mei, that is, if the sword has one, is of importance. But more importantly is the research that says that yes indeed this sword is in fact what it purports to be. If kantei is the foundation of sword appreciation as the Japanese claim it to be, then it should also make up the foundation for our sword collecting as well.  Collecting nihonto is an open book test! 

One should know the answer before completing the exam. 

[SteveM]

Hello Victor,

Reiterating Franco's comments. It's often difficult to just look at a mei and validate the authenticity. This is especially difficult with lesser-known smiths. And still more difficult if, as in this case, some part of the mei is illegible.

 

If the mei is supposed to be Kanetsune, we can say that the final kanji doesn't really look like 常 (tsune). it looks more like 定 (sada). But its too eroded to say with any confidence. And, if there is no known smith who signed as "Kanda-jū Kanesada", then we're stuck with a Kanetsune mei that doesn't look very convincing.  

 

But as Franco says, the normal thing to do is to look at the sword and make a judgment as to whether or not the sword looks like a sword from Kanetsune. There is too much uncertainty to say whether the sword is gimei or not (but it definitely looks problematic to me). 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The above says it has a torokusho (registration card) which should be surrendered before leaving Japan.
Aoi Art also mentions an NTHK certificate which is a separate thing and should come with your wakizashi (44cm blade).

 

[VRGC]

13 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The above says it has a torokusho (registration card) which should be surrendered before leaving Japan.
Aoi Art also mentions an NTHK certificate which is a separate thing and should come with your wakizashi (44cm blade).

 

Hi Bugyotsuji,

 

Yes the torokusho is staying in Japan. 

What do you you mean with Aoi Art? Where does it mention NTHK? 
 

Regards  

 

Victor 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmmm…. Can’t find it now. Didn’t you use the word ‘rare’ originally? Maybe that triggered something? 
When I read thru everything earlier today, and you said “torokushu (certificate)” I thought I saw something, possibly on a connected website, but maybe I simply got my wires crossed among all the examples you posted(?).

If so, Victor, apologies! 

[reinhard]

Torokusho states: a wakizashi (written in hiragana), nagasa (blade length without nakago) is 44cm, sori (curvature) is 1.8cm, 1 mekugi-ana.

Signature is: Kanda (no) Ju Kane 囗.  (empty box meaning: kanji is illegible)

 

The best known town named Kanda was in Musashi province.

The last kanji of the mei is definitely not "tsune" and probably not "sada".

 

reinhard

 

 

 

[Rivkin]

Looks like a well known dealer of 500-1500$ blades without papers and usually with some issues is becoming very popular.

Not much is seen, but the date is most likely shinto - the steel has shinto feel, nakago condition, kanji writing is consistent, beefy blade with some curvature. Could be something else, but my feeling it is shinto.

By default little known shinto signatures are genuine. They are not trying to be something well or even semi-well known. Plenty of those names are not in Meikan, though it does tend to be relatively well aligned with shinto names, its 1400-1500 period where a solid portion of smiths are missing alltogether.

[Jacques D.]

According  to the Nihonto meikan : 神田住兼常 Kanda ju Kanetsune. Musashi  貞享 Jokyo 1684/1688 he signed also .Masateru 正照

Rated chu saku by Fujishiro  wazamono.

[Franco D]

Comments,

 

Regardless of what the mei turns out to be this sword has a very pleasing shape, a sign of a good sword. It also has a suguha hamon which is another indication of a skilled swordsmith.

As far as the mei goes, it is likely that the list of smiths signing "Kanda (no) Ju Kane 囗" is short and will appear in Hawley's (which I no longer have). Which gives a place to begin research.

 

Regards

 

 

[VRGC]

On 4/11/2024 at 3:15 AM, Rivkin said:

Looks like a well known dealer of 500-1500$ blades without papers and usually with some issues is becoming very popular.

Not much is seen, but the date is most likely shinto - the steel has shinto feel, nakago condition, kanji writing is consistent, beefy blade with some curvature. Could be something else, but my feeling it is shinto.

By default little known shinto signatures are genuine. They are not trying to be something well or even semi-well known. Plenty of those names are not in Meikan, though it does tend to be relatively well aligned with shinto names, its 1400-1500 period where a solid portion of smiths are missing alltogether.

Hi Rivkin,

When you say without papers I assume you mean without a certificate of authentication such as the NBTHK? It has a torokusho, if the sword is registered and goes through this process the belief is that it is or has some sort of authenticity. At least it’s a genuine traditionally-made sword, that’s a good sign. Obtaining a Torokusho is only possible with authentic Japanese swords or Nihonto. 

Thanks for the extra input in the, a different take than I have read so far on its history.

Regards,

 

Victor 

[VRGC]

19 hours ago, Franco D said:

Comments,

 

Regardless of what the mei turns out to be this sword has a very pleasing shape, a sign of a good sword. It also has a suguha hamon which is another indication of a skilled swordsmith.

As far as the mei goes, it is likely that the list of smiths signing "Kanda (no) Ju Kane 囗" is short and will appear in Hawley's (which I no longer have). Which gives a place to begin research.

 

Regards

 

 

Hi Franco,

I appreciate the input and I also agree, for me finding out the authenticity of the mei is more of a 'fun hunt' rather than a 'must have'. I find it fascinating that this sword was designed and worked on by a smith around 300 to 500 years ago.. and it still holds up to the test of time. I will do my best to care for it and carry it forward in time. 

Kind regards

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Victor, the registration is absolutely no guarantee of the sword being an authentic Nihonto. There are many registered non-traditional blades made during the war.

[VRGC]

39 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Victor, the registration is absolutely no guarantee of the sword being an authentic Nihonto. There are many registered non-traditional blades made during the war.

Hi John,

 

That might be the case but typically, a torokusho is granted to genuine Nihonto swords, excluding fakes, gunto, or foreign-made swords. If anything, this certification indicates the sword's prior presence in Japan and legitimacy within it.
Additionally, the fact that someone registered this sword implies its significance, possibly recognized for its beauty and or historical value (simply for being a Nihonto).

The sword has been evaluated by an expert before the auction, Patrice Sabbah, who is well-known in the field with over 30 years of experience in Japanese blades and he holds a CEA certification. Several features, such as Tamahagane and a suguha hamon, suggest its traditional craftsmanship rather than modern or non-traditional methods. However, the intriguing mei inscription adds to its mystique, making it even more fascinating to me and its potential historical significant.

 

Kind regards,