Legit Tadayoshi hizen or Gimei?

[ribendao]

Thinking about bidding on this wakizashi but I suspect it is gimei. Looks like most of Tadayoshi's blades have straight hamon unlike the wavy one this has. If it is a legit mei I might have to bid on it.
What do you guys think?
 

 

[16k]

I’d go with Gimei.

[ribendao]

Thanks JP. It does look nice though either way.

[Geraint]

Dear Jonathan.

So you have a mounted wakizashi with god foil seppa and possibly habaki, nice Namban tsuba and that killer o kissaki.  Saya is a little worn but has saya mono.  Tadayoshi school hamon are not always suguha so this is not definitive.  

 

Whatever we think this is not going to be Tadayoshi until it has had a polish and papers.  Do you feel that you would like this sword?  If so put in a bid and see where it takes you.  Let us know what happens.

 

All the best.

 

 

[ribendao]

I really do it. Especially the o kissaki. But it looks like its gonna go for at least $1,200 and i'm not sure if that will be good deal or not. Either way, Ill try to wiggle in there as cheap as possible.

[ribendao]

didn't buy it. Ended up selling for $2,200 before auction fess lol.

[omidaijo]

I'm back!

 

The Tadayoshi did indeed make many styles of Hamon ---and the world recognised signature pieces were suguha. But not just any suguha….THE suguha. The forgers jumped on this bandwagon, and anything with suguha was faked into gimei Tadayoshi with varying degrees of signature quality from that akin to a 2 year old drawing in sand with a chopstick, to the Hizen Kaji itself adding the signatures. Some rare genuine pieces are in the more flamboyant choji midare, gunome  etc and I suspect were special orders. The Oshigata books are full of them, but they rarely surface in the flesh, and when they do, they command very high prices and great care is necessary. The bulk of the works we see are therefore suguha- and in really nice suguha with some fine, often missed, ashi sometimes (4th and 5th if I recall correctly), and nijuba (2nd Gen), bright nioiguchi (2nd gen), nie deki in dark nie (1st gen) , flawless (3rd Gen)and so forth. Since the wilder hamon are buried deep in collections and rarely seen, the tendency is to assume they are gimei when they do show up. If you see a suguha sword, most jump straight to the Tadayoshi and if the hamon is lifeless, then clearly NOT the work of this school.

 

The reality is that far more suguha gimei are out there, and unfortunately, some 85% of the overall Tadayoshi swords/oshigata/images I come across are in my opinion outright gimei, maybe 10% are in the 'not sure' bracket, and 5% have me drooling. The 10 % is the grey ‘floating world’ of gimei and all sorts of theories expound, but they can be really, really good. In short, its not JUST the signature, but the message the whole sword puts out. No I am not high!

 

What I do when I see the wild hamon type swords is to put a great big question mark in the equation. In fact, the best approach is to not have any sword fever at all, and start with a gimei approach, the aim being to find signs that prove it is genuine and try to take the hoarder/gold fever attitude out of the equation as the heart beats faster.

 

So the question is.... is this sword genuine. Since I presume no-one bought it who commented, it is now an easy option to say probably gimei, feel good about it and move on, but I don’t think that does this sword justice. I once saw an old collector at the SFO show years ago sit for two days behind the dealers table with a single sword he was contemplating buying – just getting to know it and listen to it he said!

 

The sword, from what I can see (which isn't much) , doesn't have any obvious flaws and looks nice quality with a good colour to the steel. It gives an impression of quality, not junk. In no particular order...... The almost O-Kissaki and boshi is great with a Hizen type kaeri (I think that is what is there- an even tightish turnback without the wavy midare carried into the actual turn itself?). It’s a stoutly (very stout) proportioned sword, with an unusually short nakago and a signature that fills the nakago…… almost tsunobi tanto style --- so if it is only JUST a wakizashi in cutting length, then that's good news because there seemed to be a penchant for tsunobi (oversize 1 shaku 1 sun) tanto within this school (ie you don't often see small tanto, but you do see technically short wakizashi over 1 shaku, with tanto type proportions – tsunobi tanto), hence the rather short nakago ** (more later).

Koshirae is possibly changed but ---glimpse of a Hizen Namban type of tsuba, a glimpse of lovely menuki in quality shakudo and gold, a glimpse of a silver dragon kanamono on the dried up saya ripe for restoration. Kind of points to a higher value owner than a hunter killer impoverished Samurai. Onto the nakago ----- well the nakago shape is good for the early generations, rounded V shaped nakagojiri,  yasurimei are good quality, patina suggests maybe early Edo, if you go with a tsunobi tanto, then signature size and placement is kind of Ok. So I am thinking Hizen kaji work and haven't really seen anything to say it isn't yet. I love the powerful blade shape, and the short nakago maybe significant as the nakago wouldn’t be long enough to chop through your Xmas Turkey or opponents thigh bone in one stroke.

 

The all important Mei. What I don't like: One chisel stroke in the Zen kanji runs into the nakago-mune. Hmmm. I would have been more comfortable if the mekugi-ana had pieced the left chisel strokes. Kind of suggests that the mei was added AFTER the mekugi ana and squeezed into place. I don't know what they did in this respect, but was told by an old Japanese sword master a few years back that the sword was a utility weapon, and was made into a sword after the smith made it. So you would expect the entire sword blade including the signature to be made first, and the hole placed later by the person fitting the koshirae who was more concerned with fitting the tsuka than the smiths signature. Not sure on this point but it makes sense........( Incidentally he also said once a sword was chipped or damaged, it was retired from use since your life depended on its structural integrity. I would suggest that depended on the depths of your pockets.  I digress but all those Sengoku Jidai battle blades we collectors hold in high esteem with hakobori he thought of as junk!).

 

What else is not right ......Kanji spacing is a little suspect but hard to discern on an oblique picture. The bottom TADA and YOSHI seem wider apart than the upper kanji ---almost as if they are set apart from the rest of the signature to say – “look at me ---- and don’t look anywhere else”- could be the angle but it is a question mark in the process. I usually run on 3 strikes and you are out--- right now we have a (probably) tsunobi tanto shape ( ** more later) but not a problem , with a wilder hamon than usual, again not a problem but care should be exercised, possibly awkward spaced kanji (maybe a problem) and a stroke runoff the edge (problem). 

 

What I do like : the vertical stroke in the kanji Tada is exactly correctly placed for X smith. The kanji are well cut, and let’s face it, up there with the actual smiths. Whoever applied this signature was in the upper end of his knowledge of this school, whether it was a master himself, or  very good faker, or ......... the kaji itself. None of the kanji are out of place for this school in terms of shape and stroke ---none  that I have spotted yet!

 

We now take a while to let this sink in before returning to the kanji, and digress a little. The same Iaido master in Tokyo told me (and who am I to doubt him), that the castles in the castle towns were also repositories for weapons. Swords were stockpiled in times of peace for times of war. Thousands of them. And significantly many/most/all? were unsigned as they were churned out by the deshi and masters for the stockpile. The finest pieces went as gifts or were sold, the rest into the stockpile – unsigned. When hard times fell upon the Samurai (1800's onwards) and the CEO (Daimyo) was looking for cutbacks --- guess where the stockpiled swords ended up! Back in circulation ... but mumei swords were plentiful and what was required were swords made, and more significantly signed, by the masters (who were now dead). Add this to the grey production lines that the Daimyo did not control , and hey presto the actual 4th Gen sword with a faux 4th gen signature becomes reality... kaji made 'gimei'.  Yup --- this throws a big spanner in the sword world... thank goodness it isn't rife in the armour world! I have that sword – a 4^th gen blade, with a 4^th gen signature, dated 1819 (8^th gen was around 14years old). Un-papered of course but everything screams 4^th gen except the inscribed date (which if anyone is aware is smack in the middle of the leaderless Kaji as the 8^th gen was still too young, and the 6^th & 7th recently departed this world)!

 

Back to the ** short nakago issue. The same Iaido Master also told me that if you ever see a disproportioned (in length) nakago on a wakizashi size sword, it is PROBABLY a merchants sword. Remember they didn't fight, and could not wear a katana being limited to wakizashi. They carried fine pieces, high quality, but of little real fighting use due to the shortened tsuka. There was simply no need for a larger tsuka because if the merchant ever put his hand on it, he would probably be cut down in the blink of an eye. Best not touch it! They could afford the masters works and the flamboyant hamon, and often glamorous koshirae, and wanted the signed pieces. I am also thinking no self respecting trained killer of a samurai is going to put a silver kanamono dragon on his ro-iro saya.

Incidentally the old Iaido Master’s grandfather was friendly with a local Daimyo, and they both had a passion for swords (he showed me the photo at his house one evening). Anyway, the Iado Sensei inherited the old family house, and had it restored.   He found over 160 swords stashed in the attic and was slowly selling them off (I bought a few over the years) including a really nice Shodai Tadayoshi leaf yari that papered– and the usual bunch of (subsequent) gimei other smiths – stick to what you know!

 

So that is where I am at with this sword --- possibly a tsunobi tanto, (someone is now going to post its length as 1 shaku 9 sun or something, rather than 1 shaku 0 Sun 8 Bu and shoot me down ! ), possibly a merchants sword in nice koshirae, and I would give it a shot at 80% genuine 1st gen and worthy of more research -note I did not say Shinsa in Japan as the last few swords I sent a while back to the NBTHK came back Horyu (undetermined). Did I say 1^st gen?

 

Slip of the pen but it got everyone’s attention. I am still pouring over the oshigata references, but I like it and am actually leaning towards 1^st gen C1621 or a good gimei (not run of the mill). The ONE kanji that really cracks the Shodai question is the top of the HI kanji and the number of strokes top right – which was 3 for the Shodai and 2 for the other smiths – and that is the kanji we don’t see here (funny old thing)!

 

The only solace is that had there been a couple of serious bidders, it could have hit a much higher price way outside of my now wife limited retirement budget of $4 per month. Had I seen it earlier and posted this, I guess the price would have been a lot higher than the rather pitiful $2,000 (sob sob). It is not 100% gimei and IMHO worthy of further research, and despite my setbacks with the NBTHK, even (dare I say it) worthy of Shinsa, otherwise known as “passing the buck”

 

Hopefully some insight into suguha hamon, and gimei/shoshin appraisal (of Tadayoshi).

 

Don’t you just hate it when a potential bargain slips past in the night!

 

Rog

 

 

[Bazza]

You've certainly set the mood here mate.  And so very good to see you here again Roger (Retired Piiot) san.  Just loved your piece and thanks for writing it.  So you too are on a Wifely Stipend these days.  Join the Club!!.  I'll have to get out my TokuHo choji midare nidai Tadahiro katana after dinner and shoot the breeze with a glass of Laphroaig 10 and drown myself in the aura of Hizento.

 

Keep up the good work...

 

BaZZa.

[lonely panet]

great post mr robershaw, 

 

im happy to read your educated words . 

 

 

[omidaijo]

Hi Bazza, You are still kicking ? That's good news!  I might have known you were hoarding all the choji-midare swords under the bed.

Hi Hammish.... tks. Its all educated BS! And my father was called Mr Robertshaw--- I prefer Roger since according to my wife, I still have the mind of a 4 year old !

 

I have been taken to task already -- my spelling of Tsunobi (as in Tsunobi tanto) is incorrect. It should be Sun-nobi or Sunnobi Tanto --- thanks Jean. I stand corrected.

 

 

Rog

 

 

[Brian]

A post worthy of an extended break! Welcome back, and now that you have more time on your hands, we expect much more of these very interesting and educational posts.
And if you have a Hizen article or 2 floating around..feel free to submit it for the downloads page. Great post!

[Peter Bleed]

This thread is why the NMB is worthwhile. Interesting object, reasonable challenge, wonderful assessment, and good company. What's not to like!

Peter

[MHC]

Well now, what a way to be humbled.....I have now learned more in 1 short essay from Rog, than I've learned in months!

 

The only down side is the clear and present fact, that I'm unworthy of these pages let alone making comments.......sigh.

 

Time to get another book.

 

Mark

[Jacques]

On 1/17/2021 at 3:31 AM, omidaijo said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

. I would have been more comfortable if the mekugi-ana had pieced the left chisel strokes. Kind of suggests that the mei was added AFTER the mekugi ana and squeezed into place. I don't know what they did in this respect, but was told by an old Japanese sword master a few years back that the sword was a utility weapon, and was made into a sword after the smith made it. So you would expect the entire sword blade including the signature to be made first, and the hole placed later by the person fitting the koshirae who was more concerned with fitting the tsuka than the smiths signature. Not sure on this point but it makes sense.......

 

 

 

 

 

Hummm.. 

 

 

[Greg F]

Great thread to read, thanks Roger.