Satsuma rebellion swords and Kinnoto

[16k]

Okay people, make me drool!

 

Show you Kinnoto and Satsuma rebellion swords. I’ve only seen some in books so far (well, the Satsuma ones at least!)

[Dave R]

There is a whole thread on here discussing them...

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12723-okashi-to-rebellion-swords/?hl=satsuma&do=findComment&comment=131643

 

 I won't reiterate my thoughts on the subject here, because I go into them in some detail in the thread.

[Ray Singer]

Hi Jean-Pierre, I moved the Sukeyoshi kinnoto that had been offered here to a reference page on my website.

 

http://swordsofjapan.com/project/yokoyama-sukeyoshi-tachi/

[Bruce Pennington]

There is a whole thread on here discussing them...

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12723-okashi-to-rebellion-swords/?hl=satsuma&do=findComment&comment=131643

 

 I won't reiterate my thoughts on the subject here, because I go into them in some detail in the thread.

Dave,

Any idea why your photos don't show in that thread you linked us to? Photos from other guys show, but yours come out like this:

[16k]

There is a whole thread on here discussing them...

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12723-okashi-to-rebellion-swords/?hl=satsuma&do=findComment&comment=131643

 

 I won't reiterate my thoughts on the subject here, because I go into them in some detail in the thread.

 

Wasn’t aware of this thread, Dave, it’s a very interesting one, thank you!

EDIT: Too bad so many pictures are missing Dave, as I’m particularly interested in them. You don’t happen to see many of them, whatever they actually are. Those I’ve seen were only in books and even those are scarce.

Hi Jean-Pierre, I moved the Sukeyoshi kinnoto that had been offered here to a reference page on my website.

 

http://swordsofjapan.com/project/yokoyama-sukeyoshi-tachi/

 

That’s a beautiful one Ray. It must be difficult being a seller. I’d keep all of these for myself! 

 

Dave,

Any idea why your photos don't show in that thread you linked us to? Photos from other guys show, but yours come out like this:

Must be your computer, Bruce, I don’t have any issue on my side

EDIT: sorry Bruce, you’re right, I thought you meant his profile photo! 

[Ray Singer]

Yes, that's issue being a collector / dealer. I just end up buying everything I take on consignment

 

That’s a beautiful one Ray. It must be difficult being a seller. I’d keep all of these for myself! 

[Dave R]

 I have no idea why so many disappeared, but it's probably due my inexperience of posting pics on the site at the time. I have tried correcting it, but with little luck.

[Dave R]

OK, I have my own file on these, so I will repost from that. Not in order, usually with no provenance, so if you see something of yours, sing out and I will remove or credit. (Fair use terms of copyright?). Part one.

[Dave R]

 What I was trying to do, was to work towards a workable definition of what these swords actually were, as opposed to the traditional dismissal of them as Rebellion swords, which frankly does not make sense. The "Rebels" had not been disarmed and had no need of shabby improvised swords.... Part two tomorrow.

[16k]

Thank you Dave,

 

I read the original thread and realized that, indeed, there is much speculation. After reading it, I’m among those who believe they are arsenal blades to arm common soldiers. We often speak about contingency swords (erroneously) about some WW2 swords, but I believe these are some kind of contingency sword. It was the last ditch and everybody probably had to be armed, kinda like the Kazuuchimono of the Sengoku period. The thread was very interesting and instructive, thank you. 
 

I wonder how members here have actually seen or own one.

[Dave R]

A friend of mine has one, tired blade, tsuka made from a piece of saya, and flattened brass buttons as menuki. They can be really shabby things, I have a couple of tsuka, found in the bits box of a dealer, because they are sometimes stripped refurnished and sold on as better than they were.

 

This one has a decent old tsuka core as a base, but a random kashira/kabutogane held on by the Ito, and not that well anyway.

 

 The ito is usually quite well done, not put together by amateurs, but by skilled men working to a price. What confuses the picture are the "cheap" mounts, done for a price but with all proper fittings.... which is what I was trying to sort out in the original thread.

 

 The menuki are the rear washers from tobacco pouch mounts.

[Dave R]

Here is the cheap tsuka, but not a "Satsuma" all bits present and correct and a horn kashira but with what looks to be folded folded hemp cloth as Ito. Neatly done, very nice and tight and with proper menuku rather than the weird and random you see on some cheap (Satsuma) koshirae.

[Brian]

The photos don't show because they weren't uploaded here, but linked elsewhere, where they are now gone.
For example, here's the link to one of them: https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383726_743373475688648_160112496_n.jpg

[Dave R]

The photos don't show because they weren't uploaded here, but linked elsewhere, where they are now gone.

For example, here's the link to one of them: https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383726_743373475688648_160112496_n.jpg

 

 Like I said, inexperience! At the time I did not realise how fugitive linked pictures were. My fault entirely....

[Brian]

No worries Dave. The Photobucket type knife-in-the-back took us all by surprise. Same with other hosts. No-one's fault. Appreciate you taking the time to try and correct it.

[Dave R]

Part 2..... Part 3 tomorrow.

[Surfson]

I have a tanto that was forged by Munetsugu II for somebody to carry in the Boshin revolt (which I guess was an early stage of the rebellion in which the ousted Tokugawa government tried to take back control of Japan) and was then later carried in WWII.  I'm not sure it would be considered a Satsuma sword since it is a typical tanto in shirasaya.  

[16k]

Never mind, Robert, post it!

 

To be fair, I’m quite surprised by the posts of this thread. I was expecting few Satsuma and much more Kinnoto.

[Dave R]

Part 3, what were used as menuki.... Usually washers or rovings, but one of these has a folded piece of scrap metal, and the other a twist of wire.  Washers/rovings are by far the most common. One has nothing at all.

[Jacques]

OK, I have my own file on these, so I will repost from that. Not in order, usually with no provenance, so if you see something of yours, sing out and I will remove or credit. (Fair use terms of copyright?). Part one.

 

The fith is mine but no worry 

[Surfson]

OK, here it is J-P.  I am still waiting for it to clear deregistration, as I bought it in an auction recently.  Cheers, bob

 

 

[16k]

Wow, that indeed is a very nice blade, Robert!

[Bugyotsuji]

Re Kinnoto, I have finally got my head around these possibilities: 勤皇刀, 勤王刀, 勤王党 and 勤皇党

[Dave R]

The fith is mine but no worry 

 

 Thank you.