fuchi/kashira

[jct3602]

New acquisition, already shipped and arriving in a day or two.  Wonder how it will look with a bit of super gentle soap and some water.  Looks like may have had some damage, but pretty flashy -I like the waves on the kashira spilling down the sides and the construction of the lines of the interior of the waves on the fuchi.  Any thoughts on possible artist/school would be appreciated to guide research.

 

Thank you,

John Twineham

[Ford Hallam]

In my opinion these look suspiciously contemporary, possibly mainland China.

 

The work is very unorthodox and the nanako is pretty ropey. A relatively skilful maker but not one well versed in the classical Japanese tosogu tradition. A know of a few such makers.

[TETSUGENDO]

+1, as Ford says.  Unfortunately, your new acquisition is absolutely fake.

 

-S-

[Grey Doffin]

Notice how in pictures 1,3, & 4 the gold slops over onto the shakudo nanako; that is a classic tell for fake work.  You will never see this on genuine pieces.

Grey

[raaay]

I agree looks like modern reproduction , and I am not sure about the areas with,  what looks  black gloss paint ?

 

sorry ,

[TETSUGENDO]

Actually, some 'encroachment' of gold decoration onto surrounding areas is not uncommon, it is present on works by some of the greatest masters.   One must assess the design quality and workmanship as a whole to make a judgement.  The piece illustrated is an NBTHK papered Hozon example by Omori Terumitsu from a website of unquestionable reputation.

 

-S-

[Grey Doffin]

Agreed, but when it happens to the degree it does on the set in question there is little doubt.

Grey

[TETSUGENDO]

Many legitimate pieces exhibit plenty of it, what makes this set so obviously 'wrong' is the strange style of the execution....

this is never seen in traditional Japanese work.

 

-S-

[Tanto54]

Steven,

 

While I generally agree with your statement about gold "outside the lines", I believe that what you are seeing as an "encroachment" on that Terumitsu Dragon is really part of the design (one of the claws of the back right leg...)

[TETSUGENDO]

Yes George, and the gold is STILL outside the lines,  as you know the occurence is common place...much more visible 'in hand'.  One of the best places to observe this is in bubbles of ocean spray, and drops of dew.

 

-S-

[jct3602]

Hmmm - fake; not the opinion of Brian Tschernega, Robson, or Markus, shown to them in hand at Token kai in Burlingame last week. Also Blaine Navroth, Stephen Strauch, and Michael Bell.  Robson says possibly Mito; all others said hobbiest Samurai.  The gold slop was some dealer trying to touch up gold; the underlying gold is heavy foil.  Has 95% positive nanako; one area has reverse (indented); obviously not standard.  Waves were probably overhead punch chisel, then finished with chiselling; once again nonstandard.

 

john twineham

[TETSUGENDO]

Thanks for the update John, glad that it worked out positively for you.   An outlier explains the odd bits of execution, love the appellation "hobbiest Samurai"!  This is a great lesson to all, judgment based on a photograph is only an indicator and can be wrong.  Some unconventional techniques and a bit of gold paint led many of us astray, myself included.   The only truly reliable appraisal is an in hand one.   Best of luck with it.

 

-S-

[jct3602]

Also, the motif is Date Masamune:  a one-eyed dragon missing the right eye, without a patch, on both the fuchi and kashira (closed eyes or missing in dragons tends to be left (non-dominant eye), and/or the inside eye from what  i have seen; this is the right eye and outside eye).  Markus had the opinion that motif was accurate.

 

john twineham

[jct3602]

Thanks Steven!  

      Appreciate your input very much (i also thought it was Chinese when I first saw it on the internet; Blaine Navroth said buy it!), i added the motif interpretation post as a side-light.

 

john twineham

[Ford Hallam]

I will still stand by my initial observations and opinion.

[Vermithrax16]

I am not schooled well enough in tosogu to offer an opinion of any worth, but these pics don't convey an older piece. I am confused by your today @3:56pm comment; a dealer overlaid poor foil over good foil? 95% positive nanako? I don't know what that means.

 

In any case, I wanted to ask if you showed it to the big guys, you still have questions?

[Tanto54]

Dear John,

 

Would you mind expanding on the motif side-light?   I don't see a "missing eye" - it just looks like a typical profile where you can see one eye and not the other.  The dragon's left eye is there (it's just carved instead of being inlayed, which is not uncommon).  Are you saying that Marcus (or whoever) is saying that any dragon done in profile where you can't see one of the eyes is supposed to be Date Masamune?

[jct3602]

Hi Jeremiah - no, a mercury amalgam with gold; probably the most common way to "paint" with gold coloration, but I am no authority on jeweler's arts; ask Ford.  Have been told it can be dangerous, with mercury being toxic.

 

              A few more pictures; 224125 is from the kashira, a poor photo hugely enhanced of the dragon eyes, the other 3 of the fuchi, one extremely enhanced of the eyes.  Both to demonstrate the socket

 

Yours,

john twineham

[jct3602]

Hi George:

       That is what Markus Sesko also thought at first: the blow up pictures are to illustrate. His original thought was perspective as was yours, however , the carving goes all the way down to the base material.   Date Masamune was known as the "one eyed dragon of Oshu"; he supposedly did not even wear a patch in battle.  He went blind in his right eye from infection around age 5 or 6, and supposedly plucked out his blind orb or had one of his samurai pluck it out, so it could not be grabbed in battle (around 18-22?)  Anyway, I could be easily wrong; but an interesting theory/possibility.

 

Yours,

John Twineham

[Ford Hallam]

I should probably let this dead dog lie but these damn thoughts, based on actual stuff I've researched, just wont stop popping up in my mind.

 

I'm a bit perturbed at the willingness of some in our community to ascribe unorthodox and shoddy work to amateur or hobby workers....of the Edo period.

 

The first, and most obvious question I would ask is what denotes crap work of the Edo period as opposed to crap contemporary work?

 

But more seriously, the notion that back then anyone could or would, as we blithely do today, simply have a go at a craft or art without seeking professional instruction is, from everything I've read, simply a bit too far fetched.

 

The reality, as attested to by numerous city guide books to art and craft teachers in all sorts of disciplines and including many major names, is that no-one was a self taught tinkerer.

 

What this means, especially in the Japanese Edo period, is that students followed faithfully the methods and styles of their teachers. This was simply integral to the very social fabric of Edo period Japan. 

 

Of course there were always those iconoclastic and brilliant individuals who broke the mould but every one of them did their time learning the ground rules under established masters. And this is evident even in the most avant garde work they subsequently produced.

 

This present set of fittings under discussion is a failure of technique. To focus on one detail....the maker lacked the skill to engrave the curving lines that convention dictates defines breaking waves. So he finds a 'work around', it's ugly and does nothing to convey the flow and swell of waves but it's a pattern of sorts. He made a stamp and simply stamped little steps of parallel lines on the crude wave forms as a substitute for proper engraved lines. It fails as an artistic device and looks very odd within the context to classical metalwork. There are some areas that seem to have been engraved but there the lines seem to break and restart at awkward angles. For me, the impression I get is that whoever made this lacked not just the level of skill required to do a convincing Edo period quality job but also didn't fully understand exactly how to go about creating the needed effects efficiently. 

 

As I pointed out initially, the nanako is very poor. The dragons are way below average in quality and the waves, as I've new added, are a mess.  Why should these pieces be of any further consideration, other that as a warning I suppose, with reference to the sorts of tosogu we really ought to be studying? 

 

Naturally this is merely only my opinion. Everyone is perfectly able to make up their own mind on the matter and spend money on whatever they please. But opinions were asked for so I will reinforce mine in the face of what I see is wooly thinking and perhaps an unwillingness to be seen as the bad cop. But I care about this subject and I'm concerned about a creeping decline to standards of appreciation and appraisal.

[Ed]

This post begs the question, if you were confident in what you were told in SF, why did you seek additional opinions here?

 

Also, it would be interesting to know how many people in SF gave you a negative opinion?

 

I agree with Ford that everything looks wrong.

 

In my opinion, it is a horrible rendition.

 

But, if you like it, I am happy for you.

[Ganko]

Bob Haynes was at the show in SF and would have gladly given his opinion. You can pretty much take his opinion to the bank.

[Stephen]

"take his opinion to the bank"

And Fords as well

[jct3602]

I presented it to the board first; before the show; did not agree with Ford, etc. but kept my mouth shut.  I am willing to believe I could be in error; figured Brian Tschernega, Robson (an NTHK judge), and Markus Sesko were a reasonably competent group to show it to in person.  I talked in the bar to Haynes, but that was Thursday night before set-up.  If I had had it with me then I would have shown it to him.  Also was going to show it to Yoshindo, who is making some great tiny tsuba, etc., but he left early on Saturday.  Some of you may know Blaine Navroth, Stephen Strauch, and Michael Bell, each of whom have been deeply involved in Japanese swords and furniture, for longer than those of you younger than 55 have been alive; they had the same opinion as the 1st 3 gentleman i mentioned.  No one gave me a negative opinion; not one that had it hand.

    However, this board supposedly is for scholarly discussion, not ego; sadly it does not always rise to that level.  Sterile technique seems to be valued over art; the cave paintings in France would be dismissed by this board as crude, since they were done probably by charcoals in firelight.

 

john twineham

[Ford Hallam]

John

 

It's a pity you've chosen to take this all so personally and that you have now resorted to insulting those who disagree with the opinions you had hoped for.

 

The simple fact is you asked for opinions. Most of those here you don't like. That's the nature of opinion.

 

Your rebuttal is to reference a number of people who may or may not have the appropriate knowledge and understanding, or motive, to give you a valid opinion.

I, at least, tried to provide some rationale for my opinion while you validate those you like and heard elsewhere simply by simply claiming those individuals have looked at sword stuff for ages so therefore are more reliable.

 

Appealing to authority, your self selected experts, proves nothing without reasoning. No one is infallible and in my view any opinion offered without reasoning is of questionable value.

 

Your parting line is actually quite amusing, egotistical and crude ( and downright rude) though it is.

However, this board supposedly is for scholarly discussion, not ego; sadly it does not always rise to that level. Sterile technique seems to be valued over art; the cave paintings in France would be dismissed by this board as crude, since they were done probably by charcoals in firelight.

 

[Krystian]

In my opinion It looks like "European Dragon" with short body and big wings. It might be hard to find a traditional Japanese School of artists that used this type of dragon design. But if it is an Japanese antique this might help you with research. 

[raaay]

  sorry , but it seems to be going down this road again.