Shinsa Nbthk March 2017

[Keiji]

Sorry, a favor, do you know approximately when NBTHK will give the responses of shinsa of March?

 

Thank you.

[pcfarrar]

Last I heard is that it was 3 months to get the item back and then another 3 months for the paper.

[Guest Rayhan]

Hi Francesco

 

I heard through Paul Martin that NBTHK HQ will be closing for renovations from MArch 2017 so it might be a bit of a delay till 2017 November or later. Please check this before submissions.

 

Generally Peter is correct here on the 3 month lead time.

 

Rayhan Perera

[Keiji]

Thank you :-)

 

From: http://www.touken.or.jp/english/ann_museum.htm

"In 2017, NBTHK shinsa events for swords will be in March, and touso and tousogu shinsa will be in April in the current Yoyogi location. After this date there will be a temporary break in the shinsa schedule."

 

I found this: http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Shinsa.html

 

"How long after I submit to shinsa will it be before I know the results?

 

Results are usually distributed at the end of the month following

the shinsa, but delays do happen for various reasons, and results

may take longer depending on the particular circumstance.

 

How long after I receive papers will it be before I receive my item back?

 

It can vary depending on the broker's schedule, the individual

shinsa volume, and even very special occasions when a sword

or fitting will be displayed at the NBTHK Museum for a few weeks. 

In general however, 4-6 months is the average turn-around time,

but again it varies from broker to broker."

 

 

--------------

Any of you have a personal experience about to shinsa times?

[Guest Rayhan]

 

 

Any of you have a personal experience about to shinsa times?

 

 

Hi Francesco, I had a few swords sent in November 2016 and the results are still waiting to be published, I have been told it should be out this month.

[Keiji]

Thank you Rayhan! :-)

[DirkO]

Hi Simon,

Your agent should have the pink slips of the NBTHK with the submission/failure on it - the NBTHK doesn't give you any additional info as to why it failed if I'm not mistaken.

 

Regarding the original post - I had some items in the April Tosogu shinsa which were already returned to me. Still waiting for the papers though.

[SwordGuyJoe]

NBTHK doesn't give any amplifying info. Just a failure. The NTHK branches will give additional info.

[Keiji]

As they have already written, if shinsa don't pass, a small pink sheet is given, at least for tosogu it is specified whether it is gimei, cast or else.

So your agent must give you these "receipts".

[AndyMcK]

Francesco, the shinsa results from NBTHK should be in now, I got information few days ago.

 

-Antti

[Ken-Hawaii]

An agent's future business depends on his honesty, Francesco, & the word would get around fast if he really failed to submit your blade, while telling you that he did. Is there some reason you think that he didn't submit it, or are you just upset that he told you of its failure?

 

Ken

 

[Keiji]

Thank you Antti!

 

Ken, maybe you confused me with YOJIMBO.

[Darcy]

If the blade was submitted and failed he will have a notice from the NBTHK that he can give you. Along with the bill. 

 

March 2017 results should be out as of a couple of days ago.

 

I know because I am angry. 

[Vermithrax16]

If the blade was submitted and failed he will have a notice from the NBTHK that he can give you. Along with the bill. 

 

March 2017 results should be out as of a couple of days ago.

 

I know because I am angry. 

Gonna need you to expound on this, would be interested in story for sure! DM if you want.

[Bugyotsuji]

Reading between the lines of these posts one gets the message that many blades did not make the grade in March, and some people will be wanting to know a little more as to why. Could there be some constraints at work, possibly that recent shinsa have been too loose, or some such?

 

A beautiful blade of mine failed some years ago, with the single word 'Gimei'. Well, maybe, but I was hoping to learn more about the blade itself. To add insult to injury someone had added in spidery writing that there was a nick in the edge of the kissaki. Ah so? Under a microsope perhaps! Grrr....   (I was so shocked and disappointed that I sold it soon afterwards, and have regretted that ever since!)

[Darcy]

No blades for me, just frustrating results (horyu = reserved = we are not going to give an answer = two stubborn guys arguing and not able to compromise on an answer) on some tosogu I have had in the drawer for a long time. Which I gather is par for the course for a lot of people lately.

[Keiji]

Sorry Darcy, but was this shinsa for blade and tosogu or only for blade?

 

In that case how do they proceed? They hold it longer and ask opinion to some other expert (for example Tanobe sensei)?

[Jean]

Shinsa for blades and tosogu are separated if I remember well.

 

Decision belongs to shinsa and being experts they don't need any advisor

[AndyMcK]

It certainly seems so.. =)

 

I was suprised positively with one blade and disappointed by 2 others.. And I would bet some cash on the two passing if I resend them to NTHK.

 

-Antti

[cisco-san]

 

So, finally, I got a message from the agent. All blades (5) do not pass. I do not understand that. I would have liked to bet that at least two were fine. I think there's something wrong with NBTHK shinsa. Perhaps they had a lot and did not want to examine properly. That brings me another question.

 

Does it make sense to send it back later ? Do they know then that it was already there ?

Or maybe I should try NTHK ? I do not like NBTHK anyway. They are obsolete.

 

Simon,

 

I can understand you that you are shocked!! I would send it to NTHK in any case to have a second opinion and as they blades are in JP. In the past I sent a blade for papering to NTHK Yoshikawa but unfortunately failed --> but received paper from NTHK-NPO...

Sometimes it is like a lottery.....

[Hoshi]

Looking at trends in Tsuruta-san's postings - it seems that the criteria for Hozon has been increased lately. He used to say "we guarantee hozon" far more liberally, and I faintly recall a comment with some frustration undertone saying he would guarantee it, but that he isn't so sure these days anymore. 

 

Perhaps its a conscious attempt to increase standards as a backlash for a overly lax ones in the recent past, or perhaps a tentative to keep hozon inflation under control. Who knows.  

 

It would be good to have some sort of simplified feedback, to keep frustration to a minimum - but the potential to offend would probably be intolerable. 

[paulb]

Simon

I can understand you are disappointed, I would be too if 5 out of 5 failed. I think the idea of sending them to the NTHK is a good. As Klaus says  getting an alternative opinion. is always worthwhile.

But tell me does your not liking the NBTHK come from the fact that they failed your 5 swords or did you think they were obsolete before you sent them? If so why did you send them to the NBTHK first and not the NTHK?

years ago I had the opposite experience when involved with and NTHK shinsa in the UK a number of submissions were rejected and immediately  it was the NTHK was at fault in the eyes of the owner. Interestingly enough no one complained if they got a better than expected attribution.

Regardless of the body you submit to we seem to have a distorted expectation. i.e. the organisation is only good if they agree with us and meet our expectation. If we are so sure of our own attribution why are we seeking alternative opinions?

Do they always get it right, no absolutely not, I have personal experience of blades being attributed to different smiths 500 years apart by different organisations. However they have access to a far greater pool of swords than I do see a lot more authentic work than I do so I tend to value their opinion more than mine.

As said I understand your disappointment and would feel much the same in the same situation but I do not think it fair or reasonable to call them obsolete just because they didn't tell you what you wanted to hear.

[Bugyotsuji]

Simon, I just had a chat with someone well aware of the workings of the NBTHK board, and asked him some of your questions above re the March shinsa in Tokyo.

 

He says that the judges really do take their work seriously, and they do allot proper time to deliberate over each sword individually.

 

He also said that the standard is pretty much the same; in his experience it has not been getting noticeably stricter recently.

 

If possible, I would go with some of the advice above and try for NTHK papers, even if a second opinion means waiting longer to get them home.

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, (I mean no, it doesn't make sense) because in my experience these people have close to photographic memories!

 

The only way is to wait for a new generation, or have the Mei professionally erased and try again. I have heard stories of the sword then being attributed to the very person whose Mei was on there in the first place!!!

[paulb]

I have heard mixed feedback regarding resubmission. Mostly I agree with Piers and re-submitted swords that have failed fail again or are not considered, I am not sure which. In other cases you hear stories of swords being submitted multiple times and obtain different results but again I do not know over which timeframe.

Regarding your other points

1. I would love the NBTHK to do more in English but I choose to study a Japanese subject the fact that I dont understand their native tongue is mine not theirs.

2. I am hopeful, but little more than that that the move to new premises will facilitate better communication (at least email rather than fax) but dont know if that would happen.

3.I agree it would be much more helpful to be given more information and to be able to submit directly. To to this would require higher staffing levels at their end and necesitate increased fees to cover costs. Is it worth it? possibly but so far they havent wanted to do this and prefer to rely on agents to do the handling.

 

Simon,

I believe at the moment the NBTHK offers the best option regarding attribution. I think they are to some extent the victim of their own success and struggle with the volume of submissions they recieve, especially from overseas. You submitted 5 swords, twenty years ago I doubt they received 5 in total from outside Japan for a shinsa session. 

We can hope they improve, certainly my expereince with the NBTHK EU is that they work continually with the HQ in Tokyo to make sure they are aware of such feedback. 

In the meantime I think the advice given, regarding submitting to an alternative body may be the best for now.

[Pete Klein]

Kübler-Ross model  ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model )

 

 

Stages of grief

 

The stages, popularly known by the acronym DABDA, include:^[4]

1. Denial – The first reaction is denial. In this stage individuals believe the diagnosis is somehow mistaken, and cling to a false, preferable reality.
2. Anger – When the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue, they become frustrated, especially at proximate individuals. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"; "Why would this happen?".
3. Bargaining – The third stage involves the hope that the individual can avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise. For instance: "I'd give anything to have him back." Or: "If only he'd come back to life, I'd promise to be a better person!"
4. Depression – "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon, so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
   During the fourth stage, the individual despairs at the recognition of their mortality. In this state, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time mournful and sullen.
5. Acceptance – "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it; I may as well prepare for it."
   In this last stage, individuals embrace mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. People dying may precede the survivors in this state, which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the individual, and a stable condition of emotions.

[Kanenaga]

Don't expect the NTHK to necessarily be more forgiving, they have a reputation for being quick to fail blades if there is even the slightest uncertainty.  I have 2 swords that were "pinked" by the NTHK (at US shinsa) and subsequently got TH from the NBTHK. 

 

The only papers to be seen at DTI are from NBTHK.

 

Les

[Gakusee]

In Europe, most dealers and collectors recognise NTHK, what it means etc but still frown upon or refuse to market blades with NTHK papers. NBTHK papers seem much more preferred/established/recognised in Europe and Japan, while my impression is that the US is much more neutral/forgiving when it comes to NTHK papers. People sometimes prefer the fact that the NTHK gives more information (verbally and on the sheets) and travels to their locale (which the NBTHK does not do).

I like both organisations and their teams as being much superior to me (very easy to achieve) and many of the so called advanced collectors. However, from a pure commercial perspective, I have been stung by dealers here in Europe and in Japan who have denigrated NTHK papers or refused to take blades with NTHK papers.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just had a chat with a Ninja.

 

The NBTHK Shinsa team look at anywhere up to 1,000 swords in any one session. Of these on average over the years they have passed around 65% at Hozon and failed 35%. It is in their interest to maintain a strictness about what they do, so they cannot pass everything. 

 

Reasons for fail.

If you look closely at the postcard, you will usually find a comment or two in tiny writing on the right as to why it failed. If you go to pick up the sword at the front desk, if asked, the curator (Gakugei-in) will generally also give you verbal reasons why it failed. (There are other avenues.)

 

At present the high number of submitted swords has to do with resubmissions following the disastrous blue/green Marutoku papering years. They sit five times a year, and once more for Juyo (?) and above. Their salaries are paid out of the shinsa fees.

 

*****Warning. With the opening of the new building in 2018 they may have to cancel a session next year. For example, they could accept up to double the normal number of swords in November and then accept none in March. Probably not written in stone, but an idea that is bouncing around.

 

This message will self-destruct in five minutes.

[Surfson]

I go through those stages after some presidential elections.....