Nobukuni Juyo Papers

[Curran]

Tsuruta-san has this Nobukuni up at a 'too good to be true' price:

http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-mumei ... juyo-token

 

He says Shodai.

Yet I looked at it and immediately thought Oei Nobukuni (3rd or 4th gen depending upon how you count).

I've noted a few mumei ones getting across the Juyo line in the last decades.

 

The papers just say 'Mumei Nobukuni'. Reading through I see bits and pieces of Tsuruta's write-up, but does it not say towards the end that it is Oei period? Ie. Late Nambokuchu / early Muromachi ? 1390-1400.

[cabowen]

"This sword is typical Nanbokucyo style Enbun Juji era..."

[Jean]

Furthermore as I posted in the "general discussion" section:

 

According to the Jyuyo book, this hormone is typical Nobukuni.

 

Can a mumei Muromachi blade pass Juyo?

 

2) Blades that meet the criteria given above and made in or before Nambokucho may receive Juyo Token paper even if they are mumei. Blades made in Muromachi and Edo periods, as a rule, have to be ubu and zaimei to receive Juyo Token paper.

[Curran]

Had to look up the characters for Enbun.

Why the mention of Oei Nobukuni? I cannot read (or barely even see) the kanji for the verb after it.

 

Thank you for the translation.

I am very surprised that this is Shodai Nobukuni.

I would have thought early sandai.

[Jean]

Curran,

 

I don.t see in the description any reference to Oei Nobukuni. The description given by Chris is just a part of Tsuruta's san description:

 

Era : Nanbokucyo period Enbun Jyoji era.

[Curran]

Jean:

~ Yes.

Mumei Oei Nobukuni Juyo was sold by this dealer: http://ginzaseikodo.com/englishhome.html

I was surprised, because I too thought Muromachi mumei would not pass Juyo.

 

I have since noted a two or three that have. Each instance, earliest Muromachi and a bigger name + ubu.

I thought as you do, but see the gate has not slammed at 1394. It appears a few have gotten their foot in the door.

I think the rule holds for 99.9% of mumei muromachi blades.

[Curran]

Here is the part I question:

"Oei Nobukuni _____ _____ shitte iru."

 

(see image below)

 

Also, what throws me is the suken head is deeper and the gombashi horimono are both typical of Oei Nobukuni. Ron brought up kantei by horimono recently, and normally I'd say this is difficult. However, with Nobukuni there are enough horimono and signatures that some analysis by horimono has been done in the big ole Horimono book (I forget the author's name, but can scan the book later tonight).

 

Though some variation in the early works, the width is a bit narrow for shodai or nidai, and more in keeping with sandai.

 

I'm not questioning the NBTHK at all. I just thought Tsuruta-san might have made a wrong translation in English. The Oei Nobukuni Juyo went off for about $23-25,000 which I thought high. This one seemed to be priced more in keeping with a Juyo Oei Nobukuni.

 

EDIT:

The blade is shorter than I thought. The measurements I have on file for Oei Nobukuni O-tanto are all more around 14 inches (+- 1 inch). Length relative to width, I more realize the shape here and understand 'shodai'. From the photos, I had thought it was longer.

Still, I appreciate the help on understanding the papers.

[Jean]

Habaki: silver single habaki

 

Beware of Tsuruta san description :D

[Eric H]

Nobukuni nidai - Enbun - some see him as actual 1st. gen. of Nobukuni school.

However there is the oldest extant dated Nobukuni blade from the third year of Enbun - 1308 - and is attributed to the 2nd gen.

...we know excellent and aesthetically arranged horimono...the tip of his ken is pointed and looks acute and its upper part is deeper and broader cut than the lower part...

 

from Markus‘ Sword Index

 

Eric

[Curran]

Yes. I fear Tsuruta-san's descriptions very much.

 

Having recently picked up something I wanted for about 6 years, after placing a few things privately to get it- I'm pretty happy with what I have. Yet, were I wealthier, I would try for this at its opening bid.

[b.hennick]

Hi Jean:

I just went back and checked - double gold or gold foil not single silver habaki. When you sell/post as many swords as Tsuruta san does a few errors will occur. Often there are spelling errors. If you know enough about swords you can compensate for those.

I thought that Tsuruta san gave good descriptions. One can always ask him questions.

[Jean]

Agreed Barry, but for a Juyo, it is on the amateurish side :D

[Stephen]

possible its one of his minions wording

[Jean]

Right, Stephen, but he should reread what they write. It makes it serious. I have already seen pictures/oshigata attached to a different sword.

I like Aoi Art, but it is harming him compared to other Japanese dealers.

[seattle1]

Hello:

I think Steven may have hit the nail on the head. It is my understanding that Tsuruta san has not been well lately and there does not always seem to be continuity in correspondence of a type that suggests that more than one person has replied on a given issue.

Arnold F.

[seattle1]

Hello:

Sorry for "Steven" Stephen.

Arnold

[Ken-Hawaii]

Arnold is correct. Tsuruta-san took so long to answer a recent question that I e-mailed to ask if he was okay. His response was that he has been ill, but to please not hold that against him. He was quite apologetic.

 

Ken

[Curran]

I knew I'd seen this one before.

Same blade, different dealer:

 

http://www.samurai-nippon.net/V-1137/index.html

 

It would take selling my Morokage [yakiba.com] and a tsuba or two, but I would buy the Nobukuni.

Sorry Tsuruta-san.... have not the liquid cash. Tis IRS season, and the govt takes the wallet now.

 

If anyone can see the section of the papers I posted and tell me at least the verbs after Oei Nobukuni part, I would be appreciative.

[Darcy]

From that last link kind of looks like it had a mei removed.

 

Jigane does not make me really think Shodai Nobukuni... the masame / o-mokume / masame sandwich is usually more in the Tegai -> Shizu line. This doesn't even have den on it though so they thought purely Nobukuni.

 

About mumei Muromachi passing Juyo, probably there is a bit of flex right there at Oei, and also I think standards have proven to change a bit over time. I'm not sure how long the current criteria have been in place. I think the intent is more about works that are normally / often made mumei which is something that doesn't seem to really occur later than the Nambokucho among high level works. Plus, the combination of the necessity of shortening stopping after swords shrunk in size in the Muromachi means that a mumei by suriage is the exception rather than the norm. Making it an outlier that can be ruled out for Juyo qualification.

 

About the Aoi flexible descriptions, an artifact of doing everything in high volume, low margin. Even Juyos. Buyer beware, but deals can be found (sometimes the descriptions err in the other direction).

[Curran]

From the other site, I too thought a signature had been removed. Since it seems rather obvious, that would affect value- no?

 

There was a gimei Nobukuni up on another dealer's site at a fair price not long ago. Funny thing was that if the signature were removed, I was pretty sure it would go to one of the 3 guys considered the "4th generation" Nobukuni.

Interesting sidefact is that one of the Nobukuni smiths was either dyslexic or learned his signature wrong. He would sign the 'Kuni' character backwards.

 

The shape of this one fits with shodai, though a bit small in some ways. Lacks some of the traces of influence I have seen on previous shodai works. In most regards, looks Oei Nobukuni to me. Still, tempting to me. I hope it goes to a good home and I see it again some day.

[Grey Doffin]

Interesting about the backwards Kuni, which is usually attributed to one of the later generations working in Muromachi. I once owned a Tach that was signed Nobukuni with the backward Kuni. The NBTHK papered the blade and called it "Nobukuni Nambokucho".

Grey