Interesting Higo Tsuba

[raiden]

[attachment=0]nmb-higo2.jpg[/attachment]I just bought this tsuba, up so you guys can study, not papered yet but I have my own ideas...The rim is fabulous, kin hishi style.

[Soshin]

Hi Mike Y.,

 

You have already likely read on Facebook my "likes" and comment very nice tsuba! Will it be on display at your table at the upcoming Tampa show later this month? Please say yes because I would just like to take a look at it if possible. Thank you very much. :D

[Pete Klein]

Matahei Shigehisa Hayashi 5th?

[Curran]

Pete beat me to it.

3rd or 5th gen Hayashi.

 

Nice.

[John A Stuart]

Wow, the re-patination sure blackened it. Great inlay on the mimi. John

[Curran]

John: Repatination???? If so, someone does good work.

 

All I do is hang them in empty garage I have.

A winter or two there seems to help.

[John A Stuart]

Curran, I don't mean to create strife at all, but, on so many tsuba I see this surface colour and the indication of re-patination visaible on the sekigane. I think I have mentioned it before. The sekigane in the divots made by knocks and tagane marks have retained the formula used when the tsuba is wiped clean of it and some deposits left in these spaces. The sukashi will have a slight blackening on the interior edge were the application overlaps slightly sometimes.The surface rust from the cleaning before the patination can be seen underneath the blackening (all over, especially at 7, 8 o'clock). This is a desirable tsuba and re-patination is common and I'm not knocking it where it restores a tsuba, however, the patina is just artificial. Too black and opaque, like a wash. One blackening mixture that can be applied to a warm tsuba, at boiling temp., that is so tough it will withstand wire-brushing, is made of sodium hydroxide and ammonium nitrate. Easy to get reagents. John

[Curran]

I understand what you are saying, and have heard it before from you on a tsuba I previously owned.

On the one I previously owned, I see your logic.

However I was certain you came to the wrong conclusion, and that causation of condition had a different culprit.

 

There have been and will be times when you are right and I am wrong.

On Mike's: I don't see it as you do, but I find Hayashi tsuba to sometimes be the d*mndest iron.

 

Of the Higo schools, I struggle the most with Hayashi and some of the Kamiyoshi inheritance of their works.

Then there are those Hayashi that have iron this blackish. Seen many of them, and wondered more if it is some sort of particular Hayashi patina finish.

 

I don't think Mike's is Dipped or Done, but would check inside the sukashi and then under decent magnification like Stereo Microscope Ken or someone else here on NMB recently talked me into buying.

After that, a few things more to check before I call it Dipped or Done.

[Pete Klein]

Something which inspired me at a 'much' younger age:

 

Charles W. Kingsfield Jr.: You teach yourselves the law, but I train your minds. You come in here with a skull full of mush; you leave thinking like a lawyer.

[raiden]

If you can tell if a tsuba is repatinated from nmb posted pics, rather than in hand, you are way better than I for tosogu kantei. My idea is Tohachi, it is a very good tsuba, and I guess someone did an excellent job of learning how to do gama hada.

[Soshin]

Wow, the re-patination sure blackened it. Great inlay on the mimi. John

 

Hi John S.,

 

To me the patina of the iron is typical of Hayashi School in Higo Province in my honest opinion. This type of dark patina found in Hayashi and Kamiyoshi schools is referred to as yokan.

[John A Stuart]

Believe me guys, I am not trying to be a smart-ass or anything. I am not crying foul, merely presenting something I've noticed from time to time. Totally a legitimate process and nothing to detract in a general sense. The process is not a dip, but, a wash. Anyhow, give it a check sometime when you see such and decide for yourself, I can take being in error. As to a yokan patina, that has a translucent cloudlike depth like you see in Nobuiye tsuba. John

[Guido]

Yôkan:

[Soshin]

Believe me guys, I am not trying to be a smart-ass or anything. I am not crying foul, merely presenting something I've noticed from time to time... As to a yokan patina, that has a translucent cloudlike depth like you see in Nobuiye tsuba. John

 

Hi John S.,

 

Relax no problem. I never seen the yôkan like patina discussed in the context of Nobuie tsuba just the iron of Hayashi and Kamiyoshi schools. I am interested can you provide more information or a reference via PM or reply? Thank you.

[Brian]

So the concensus is that it's 3rd or 5th gen Hayashi.

For us novices, can anyone provide a few kantei points, and why the2nd gen is excluded so confidently?

Looks like a wonderful find. Will it go for papers? Would be interesting to see which it goes to...3rd or 5th.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

So the concensus is that it's 3rd or 5th gen Hayashi.

For us novices, can anyone provide a few kantei points, and why the2nd gen is excluded so confidently?

Looks like a wonderful find. Will it go for papers? Would be interesting to see which it goes to...3rd or 5th.

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian,

 

I will give it a try. Three points that make me think 5th generation Hayashi. The first is the thickness of the kebori lines to highlight the design. They look to be wider then my Kamiyoshi tsuba up for shinsa at the end of the month. The second point is the balanced shape of the seppa-dai. The 3rd generation often made tsuba with strange shaped seppa-dai that were oversized and often over incorporating openwork design elements. The color of the patina is also what I have seen on examples of the 5th generations work. Here is an example of 3rd generation work from Ito Sensei book. Shigefusa was one of three names used by 3rd generation Hayashi master. Notice the shape of the enlarged oversized seppa-dai.

Hayashi Matahei, 5th Generation Master, Dated APR 1810.jpg[/attachment]

[Higo-san]

Just another idea: Kamiyoshi Fukanobu.

[raiden]

Wow, the re-patination sure blackened it. Great inlay on the mimi. John

 

I believe that in all fairness, unless proven, comments like this should be worded differently. I see many strange comments on this site from those that have not seen the original item in hand. I agree discussion is educational, but there is a right way and the other way. I really don't care, my items are mine, and I know what i buy, but there have been some beginners that have gotten swatted in an unfair fashion. We need to promote new collectors, not discourage them with unproven opinions.

The patina looks dark in the pic, what is the reason for this?

 

did anyone think that there might be original urushi left on the piece? or how many people know what gama hada is on Hayashi pieces?

[raiden]

[attachment=0]kamiyoshi-fuku.jpg[/attachment]This one is probably Kamiyoshi fukunobu/rakuju. From the same collection as the hishi mimi hayashi, also no paper.

[Stephen]

That shows one how much can be learned here, i too took it as being overly black, head my tongue as i know next to nada about tosogu...more please.

[Soshin]

I agree discussion is educational, but there is a right way and the other way. I really don't care, my items are mine, and I know what i buy, but there have been some beginners that have gotten swatted in an unfair fashion. We need to promote new collectors, not discourage them with unproven opinions.

 

Hi Mike Y.,

 

Very good point. I have been around the block a few times and know just to ignore such baseless comments as the noise of a public message board. With that said I can see how it would discourage new collectors in continuing the hobby and investing any more time and/or money.

[Stephen]

with statements like above i remember why i dont come into Tosogu very often, thanks for the turn off.

[Brian]

David,

I'll remind you that no comments are baseless when the reason for the opinion was clearly stated.

No..I'm not of that "be kind with your opinions, or we will scare away the wannabees" group. Just because there is a good chance that it isn't repatinated, doesn't mean there isn't a chance it is. Newcommers to this field better not just assume every piece is ok, as they are not always. There are more gimei swords out there than shoshin, and probably more tosogu that has been messed with than not. So people had better start questioning things, or they are going to assume this is a nice and rosy field of collecting, when it can be as perilous as any out there.

If a patina looks overly black, then it is up to experts to explain why. Because just as sure as we assume gimei on swords without papers...we had better be overly vigilant when buying tosogu.

I have said before that items posted may be questioned or picked apart. The way to deal with that is to explain why they are as presented. Not to assume they are right, and hope that it isn't. Mike has shown a good example of another with similar patina. That has now educated people far more than if nothing had been said originally about the patina. This isn't a showroom or an extension of anyone's shop. We are here to debate and discuss and pick apart. And therefore learn.

Mike has shown before that he knows his field, and is not scared to post items and have them discussed. And this may be why he is one of the leading and most successful dealers. Running from questions doesn't inspire customers.

I for one am happy to have learned a bit about Hayashi.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

I confess, it makes me not want to question anything in case of causing afront. I am a student and want to learn like everyone else and am not trying to cause a ruckus. I will explain my reasoning further and then let it drop and listen to other opinions. One of the telling characteristics of Hayashi tsuba is the lustre of the base iron. This is a published and demonstrable fact. The first three masters, Matashichi, Shigemitsu and Tohachi are the premier artists of this line and neverminding Kamiyoshi Rakuju, Nishigaki or Shimizu which can confuse things. I am most familiar of Hayashi tsuba by those first three masters, mostly by the literature (pics). I have never heard of gamahada associated with this group and that is a new thing I have learned and look forward to seeing more examples. I have seen a few fittings with this toad skin surface texture very definitely made for an effect. In the following two pictures the Hayashi tsuba exhibits the patina and colour (it was calibrated) I expect to see. I could supply more in similar vein, but, no need the point is illustrated. This is why I question differing patina. The second picture is of a Choshu tsuba reverse side that shows oxidation like foxing of a painting that mimics the surface of the tsuba I questioned. If I was to re-patinate this tsuba without removing all that oxidation, what do you think would be the appearance. So, that's it. I hope I have worded this more cautiously. John

[Curran]

did anyone think that there might be original urushi left on the piece?

 

Yes.

It is a point I didn't want to get into, because it is a big one and I'm still filling my mental binder on it.

With a lot of Muromachi and Momoyama pieces, that lacquer (a)what it does (b) where it does it© where it came off and didn't (d) when it was lacquered AND relacquered

can yield extremely differential changes in appearance.

 

I had a lacquered Kamakura tsuba that was extremely educational to study before it went off to France. David had ko-katchushi or momoyoma piece that he showed me in Tampa and I thought it very interesting because the tsuba showed good age yet was lacquered some time 10 to 100(? I can only guess) years after it was made in use. It showed age from the outside as something that was in use for a very long time, but also age from under the lacquer as the lacquer was worn and diminished to expose the old metal and its original issues.

 

To put it another way: lacquer is a real ball breaker wild card of a topic

I have not seen its use much on 3rd gen Hayashi --> Kamiyoshi, but that is more the limits of my experience than anything book learned.

[Soshin]

with statements like above i remember why i dont come into Tosogu very often, thanks for the turn off.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I am glad I can help.

 

Hi Curren,

 

See below from a castle museum collection in Japan. Enjoy...

[Soshin]

There are more gimei swords out there than shoshin, and probably more tosogu that has been messed with than not.

 

Hi Brian,

 

While replying to your post I am messing with a tsuba that was already messed with.:lol: I was just looking for John S. to better develop his ideas which he later did in response my and Mike Y. posts. Curran also added some important point to consider which was raised by Mike Y. I consider the issue closed with the exception I would like to see the tsuba in question. You made some good points but how we communicate to new collectors that make mistakes is important and I think the aggressive and hyperactive nature of a public forms isn't something I would consider a natural part the Japanese sword culture inside or outside of Japan. If I would go on to say my local sword club as some people approach this forum in such a aggressive, condescending, and egotistical way I would likely asked to leave in about the first 15 minutes. True study is with the tosogu or sword in hand with a teacher or mentor as a guild and if that not possible fellow collectors in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

 

P.S. Feel free to delete my account. :|

[raiden]

ok, lets return to the original theme....My idea is Tohachi, I probably will take this tsuba to Tampa, and it needs a bit of very light toweling, so I may work on it at the show. Everyones opinion is great, it is good that you all can throw out a guess. There are usually 3 main types of Kantei, what is it - Is the signature real - and/or how good is it. In this case as it is unsigned, what it is and how good is it apply. Its good everyone went to Higo, even Hayashi and Kamiyoshi as they are related. Yokan ji , gama hada, kin hishi zogan, all good things to know and learn. John, I was using your statement as an example because it seemed you knew enough of this piece to call it repatinated, rather than ask if the color was off and could this piece be repatinated.I find that this type of judgement to be impossible for a piece like this without seeing it in hand.

[John A Stuart]

Ahh, I see Mike. Yes, that is what my intent was, to query just that. I should have phrased the original post better or added a question mark. I hope you know now my reasoning anyway, right or wrong. John

[Curran]

David's write-up was pretty darn good. David: if you want to sell me that ubu Mushroom katchushi tsuba off the back of a truck in NJ, I would have quite the quandry.

With most tsuba it is fine to see it in person and own a good image of it for memory, but you know I've wanted to own one like that or one of the Sasano ones for a while.

 

Pete says 5th, and Pete has sharper forensic eyes than me.

I couldn't decide between 3rd and 5th. Assuming it was Yoshinogawa theme, something felt more 3rd gen [Tohachi].

My experience has been that his tsuba are more finished, more often axis oriented in the design, and tend to be simpler like this papered one:

http://www.shoubudou.co.jp/tuba-483.html

 

The seppa dai and some of the other details, from experience point me at 5th gen, but black iron seems to be more 3rd gen.

As Mike chides us a bit, hard for us to do kantei to a generation on the web. Still, some kinda speak boldly. Forgive our upstart kantei.

When Pete makes a call, in the end I usually find I agree with him once I have time to be more scientific than my initial hocus-pocus instincts.

He is surgically precise, as a surgeon should be. He doesn't waste words, like I do.

 

For the non Higo collectors.... the 4th Gen died 'Real Fast' like a guy wearing a Red Jersey on the original Star Trek: so _few_ tsuba are attributed to him.

 

Mike also mentioned Fukanobu (Kamiyoshi). Here is a papered one I was looking at this morning:

http://www.touken-sakata.com/%E5%88%80% ... %E5%BE%8C/