Jean Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 Believe what you want Jacques, who cares after all but you, but I remember not far ago you commenting on a sayagaki of Honma Junji stating my sword was Hosho and you questionning his sayagaki saying how could he be so wrong about his kantei though you had not or held the sword....which is funny because at the opposite, Darcy having seen the sword was believing this kantei (Darcy knows what he is talking about having owned and sold both school blades). BTW, I had asked the owner of the Juyo Yasumitsu mentioned in the other thread a few questions. He told me that the blade was suriage by about half an inch, that the blade had not been shaved on the ura side, but only on its back (mune side) probably to fit a koshirae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 Hi, Believe what you want Jacques, who cares after all but you, but I remember not far ago you commenting on a sayagaki of Honma Junji stating my sword was Hosho and you questionning his sayagaki saying how could he be so wrong Strawman Jean, strawman BTW, I had asked the owner of the Juyo Yasumitsu mentioned in the other thread a few questions. He told me that the blade was suriage by about half an inch, that the blade had not been shaved on the ura side, but only on its back (mune side) probably to fit a koshirae Looking at the location of the bottom of the bohi, it is clear that the nakago was suriage by largely more than half an inch. Nobuo Nakahara is wrong too ? http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Suriage.pdf Excepted you Jean, everybody is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihonto1001 Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 This type of thing is a "vicious loop" for Shinsa teams. They may never have an alternate mei, if they reject them based solely on previous examples. I understand that it is better to be conservative in these cases. However, I always hate hearing stories about swords being resubmitted after having the mei removed, just to have it paper back to the original smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 Jacques, You are once again biaising Considering Nakahara, in his book, to be honest he mentions two ways of shortening nakago. One is by cutting the end of nakago and letting mei and nengo, the other is by filing the ura side of the cut nakago. In fact, all depends of the length of suriage, if the suriage is about half an inch and correspondingly the blade machi okuri, no need to file the ura side. Here is an example which fits the Juyo sword I posted in a precedent thread and which explains why the owner told me his blade was not shave on the uraside: http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-bishu-osafune-tsuneie Never say never, suriage does not imply automatically the shaving of one side, that's what shows Nakahara. BTW, calling Honma Junji "strawman" for someone who puts so much faith in him ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 on the lighter side any chance of locking Jacques D. and Adrian in the same room? just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 on the lighter side any chance of locking Jacques D. and Adrian in the same room? just a thought And a good one at that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Could be interesting, but as long as the posts are irrelevant as Jacques' last one, it will be deleted :D . For information, here is an extract of the last e-mail I got from the owner of the blade who has been in the collection business far before Jacques and who has been able to examine his sword at length, I have suppressed the comments on Jacques : I had time today, so I looked at the nakago and took measurements.Blade/nagasa is 89.6cm (35.275 inches). Nakago is 24.5cm Studying it closely, with much more understanding than I had when I purchased it.... it is *very* debatable whether any was cut off the nakago. 1 to 3 cm at most? But also easy to argue it was simply refinished when the mune was shaved down. Ura definitely was not shaved. The mune of the nakago was shaved down, cutting into the signature. **My opinion** is that it starts from the second mekugi ana down to the end. It is an almost laser straight line. I think this would done to correct for a later koshirae and the excessive curvature of such a long blade. Much like how they mount Satsuma koshirae tsuka. Very difficult to say if the length of the nakago was cut at all. I really think either 1 to 2cm (OR) is was simply refinished the same as the nakago mune at the same time the nakago mune was cut. You will noticed: Ura was definitely not shaved - everyone knows (?) that nengo are mirrored to the mei on the ura so ..... Elementary Watson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runagmc Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Just for learning purposes... What about the workmanship of the gassaku tanto? It looks like it could be sue Bizen to me. Is the conscensus that it IS sue Bizen, only very likely gimei? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hi, Jean, Can you tell us the lenght of that sword an if it had a nengo before being suriage ? Your claim is based on speculation, not on something rationnal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Jacques, We are talking about the Juyo sword the owner has just sent me the e-mail extract above and which was posted in an another thread. You have the result of his thorough examination. The nakago is not shaved, easy to check as, seen from above, as one side is intact, there should be an asymetry should the nakago be shaved. Blade/nagasa is 89.6cm (35.275 inches). Nakago is 24.5cm As shown, small suriage does not need nakago modification. The nengo if any should have been (if any) at the opposite of the mei or the ura side is intact, dixit the owner (and the nakago was carefully scrutinize at purchasing as it has been an argument for the price discussion, taking into consideration the unseen blade length for Yasumitsu and the fact that it has 3 different hamon style). The fact the nakago flat sides are not modified points to an undated sword. I am only listing the elements given by the owner, now from the description nothing points to a dated blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbvac Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Jean and Jacques: Dealing with les Francophonie en Canada I have seen similar discussions here in writing and in person, is it a cultural thing to love the debate and the disagreement :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raven2 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 on the lighter side any chance of locking Jacques D. and Adrian in the same room? just a thought It certainly would be interesting and entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Brian, Very important, as the "ju", would you want to pay top price for a gimei blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hi, The nakago is not shaved, easy to check as, seen from above, as one side is intact, there should be an asymetry should the nakago be shaved. Jean, Answer my question please, and at the same time explain why you say the nakago was not shaved. I'm very curious to read your argumentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Jacques, I cannot say if there was a nengo or not (btw, neither can you), all I say is that the owner who has studied ( and he is not the only one, this sword being famous in America due to its unusual length and the fact, that it has three different style of hamon) it says that only the back of the sword was shaved, not the sides. If he is right, this sword has never had any nengo. Now, I have already proven that shaving a side is not a must to suriage a sword. Now it is upto you to prove there was one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takakage Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 I beg your pardon Jean but which sword ???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Patrick, This one: page 2 viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17307&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=Juyo+yasumitsu&start=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Hi, I cannot say if there was a nengo or not (btw, neither can you), all I say is that the owner who has studied ( and he is not the only one, this sword being famous in America due to its unusual length and the fact, that it has three different style of hamon) it says that only the back of the sword was shaved, not the sides. If he is right, this sword has never had any nengo. Ok, so you can't say Honma Junji is wrong. For that, you need an ubu sword with a nagamei and without nengo. What do you think about this one below ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 on the lighter side any chance of locking Jacques D. and Adrian in the same room? just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Thanks Jacques, The nakago not having been filed, dixit the American collectors who have seen it, the discussion being on the suriage length, this blade did not have any nengo. Members can easily see that the mei of the sword I posted, reach the bottom of the nakago, not unlike the one you have just posted which is ubu, which confirms the blade being very slightly suriage (1/2 cm) You should have wondered why the back of the nakago was shaved. I let you proved there was a nengo on this one, if you can you are better than the ones who have handled it. I am sure that you are not aware that even in shinsa, there are discussions about blades being suriage or not and that the decision is submitted to vote .... Topic shall be reopened when you can produce a proof that this sword had a nengo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Oh I don't know G-Man... Sometimes watching the back and forth as a spectator is better than tennis. The old "don't feed the trolls" maxim clearly hasn't spread as far as it should. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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