Civillian Mounts

[Grey Doffin]

Hi guys,

This auction came up on ebay today:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samura ... 3f2d3c11c2

Got me wondering: Has anyone ever come up with the true story behind these civillian mounted Gunto? I've seen that style tsuba a dozen times so I know they were cast and not in small quantities. There has to have been a group of people for whom these and similar swords were made; do any of you know who and/or why? A quick check through Fuller & Gregory and Dawson didn't answer the question.

Thanks, Grey

[Daniel]

Hi

I think I read somewhere these Tsuba were made for Iaido. This sword is probably a sword "made" for Iaido or Iai-jutsu (I don't know much of either discipline). I have seen a number similar refitted with a leather combat cover for use in the war.

Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm or correct?

Best

Daniel

[mdiddy]

Grey,

 

I think some of those swords were made to feed a market of civilian practitioners of kenjutsu. Many schools of swordsmanship were unified in 1912 and the teaching of these practices flourished until suspension by the Allied occupation in 1952. A healthy population of civilians practicing these arts would generate ample demand to siphon off some of the supply of low-cost swords made at places like Seki. At the end of the day, I imagine sword dealers were not picky about who their customers were - civilians or soldiers - and if there was a need to supply civilians with swords at a low price they found a way. Just my $.02.

 

Matt

[mdiddy]

Edit - I agree with Daniel!

[Ian]

You have probably seen this

http://ohmura-study.net/728.html

 

Regards

[benatthelake]

Grey and all:

 

Thank you for the posting and discussions. It adds more context and answers some lingering questions on my civilian Gunto Sword. I've been holding on to this one as it was made with Yasuki steel. Although clearly non-traditional (confirmed by the Showa stamp), I still find it interesting from a historical perspective and was priced right!

 

It should be interesting to see if the one on ebay sells.

 

Best regards,

Ben M.

[John A Stuart]

Was not the civilian gunto carried to signify a connection to the army as an employee status object? That is, not enlisted, not commisioned, but, an hired administrative employee. Most armies had civilian swords for these auxilliary positions. John

[Bruno]

Hi Grey,

 

I have been interested in those Bamboo, cherry blossoms patterns for a while, as they were the only "official" way to mount a WW2 sword in traditional koshirae style, instead of the military gunto ones. All I found or was mentioned was the same : mass produced fittings made first for iaido etc...and then refitted in civilian gunto koshirae. But it was always a guess, never been proved. So the question is still open.

[kusunokimasahige]

Ex-military who were allowed to keep their gunto and changed the koshirae from the Military one to civilian mounts?

 

Could that be a possibility ?

 

I am not convinced the swords had to be returned when you quit an army commission (not talking about surrender swords here or the swords which were turned in in Japan when the American "Sword hunt" happened)

 

KM

[cabowen]

That's not it.

 

There was a thriving iai community in Japan prior to WWII. I don't think it is a stretch to believe that iai swords were retasked for military duty. All of these that I have seen were Seki production. Nearly all iai-to today are made in Seki, as they were then. This explanation makes the most sense in my opinion.

 

One other possibility is that these were purposely made for military service for those that wanted to carry a more traditional looking sword. I very much doubt this but I suppose it is possible.

[Rich S]

I would agree with Chris. I have two originally civilian mounted WW II swords: an Ishido Teruhide and a Kanesane. The Teruhide is gendai, the Kanesane is non-traditional. Both are a bit on the

light side and moderate sori. I believe both were made for iaido/iai practice. At least that's what

I used my Teruhide for (when I had legs/knees/back that worked).

 

Rich S

[Bruno]

Hi Rich,

 

Interesting that you have a gendaito in those civilian mounts. I have always wondered if only showato were found in such mounts. Ishido Teruhide from Tokyo was a good smith, may you post photos of it please?

[Rich S]

Bruno -

 

My digicam died a while back and I haven't bothered to get another.

Besides, I never could get a decent pic of a sword that showed enough

detail to be of use. Sorry.

 

Rich