Milne Bay Sword - Lt Gordon Harvey 42nd Bn 2/AIF

[dnmmilo]

I recently purchased this sword from Bob Harvey here in Canberra. Bob is the son of Gordon Harvey, an officer who served with the 42nd Battalion 2/AIF in New Guinea who Bob states picked this sword up either during or immediately after the Battle of Milne Bay. Although I was happy to buy the sword I did suggest that Bob keep it in the family, as it is an heirloom. but he was keen to sell it as he doesn't like it in the house. He was good enough to provide me with a photograph and some newspaper cuttings about his father which I have attached.

Lt_Gordon_Harvey_42_Bn.pdf

Lt_Gordon_Harvey_News_Article_Jan_1970_-_Townsville_daily_Bulletin.pdf

[dnmmilo]

The sword appears to my inexperienced eye to have had additional mekugi-ana drilled into the nakago to attach the tsuka. These appear to have obscured the inscription which I cannot translate.

 

I'd be really grateful for any information on the sword and specifically on the blade type. One specific question I do have concerns the fuller in in the blade is that an indicator of age or style or smith or none of the above?

 

Additional pictures attached. Let me know if any other pictures would be useful.

 

Cheers David

[k morita]

三池住典田

Miike-ju Tenta

 

Groove is too narrow....

[Brian]

Morita san,

I think the picture is giving a false impression of the hi with reflections, and it is a regular looking bo-hi and soe-hi.

If well cut, then often an indication of a better quality sword.

 

Brian

[Stephen]

Nakago looks like it was overly cleand to see mei.

[Tokaido]

Morita san,

I think the picture is giving a false impression of the hi with reflections, and it is a regular looking bo-hi and soe-hi.

If well cut, then often an indication of a better quality sword.

 

Brian

 

Hello Brian,

I guess Morita san wanted to direct our attention to the regular shape of the hi: it is a regular ryo chiri bo-hi.

BUT the Miike school is famous for their VERY wide and shallow hi, which is an unique feature if originally made into the sword.

Those hi on the pictured sword are different, definitely not Miike like hi.

 

Greetings

Andreas

[dnmmilo]

Thanks for all of your comments and for your information. With regard to my previous question, I was interested to know whether the additional holes and the style of the blade where also an indicator of age and maker or whether they are just a characteristic of this particular smith?

 

Cheers David

[Brian]

David,

Additional holes are the result of remounting over the years. Extremely common and no indication of anything else.

Andreas and Morits san...I was not aware of that. Thanks for the info.

Does someone have a pic of a typical Miike horimono?

 

Brian

[dnmmilo]

Cheers Brian, As for the over cleaning, I'll have to put my hand to that. When Bob brought the sword over it took a fair amount of time and WD40 to remove the Tsuka as it was pretty well stuck. Once it was off it was pretty clear that while Bob and his father had kept the blade well oiled the haft was very heavily oxidized. My reason for cleaning it was simply that one character was very partially visible but certainly not readable. Thanks again, I really do appreciate the time and effort you fella's put in to educating those of us with an interest - David

[Tokaido]

David,

Does someone have a pic of a typical Miike horimono?

 

Brian

 

Hello Brian,

there is one on tetsugendo.com (C-71 Nabokucho Miike Mitsuyo, it is sold).

 

Greetings

Andreas

[J Reid]

I don't know what miike Hi looks like, but this sword's bohi looks squarish and fairly "wide".. I am interested in seeing better pictures and I'm with Brian on seeing other examples.. OP- do not remove the patina from the nakago (tang)..

[J Reid]

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... 45591be342 ..just found this. It's a locked thread, but has some clear pics of that shallow and wide bohi..

[Jean]

Tenta is another name for Mitsuyo

 

http://books.google.fr/books?id=vFS2iT8 ... ol&f=false

 

From this school, Very very few blades with a mei have survived .... If you look at the suguta, Miike swords are incredibly stout/large. Almost no fumbari, even width and wide shinogiji. To reduce the weight of the blade a large groove covers the shinogiji.

 

Once you have seen a Miike sword, you have almost seen all of them. Their suguta has not changed for centuries.

[David Flynn]

The holes aren't right. If one takes the middle hole as the original (judging from placement of the Mei), then why does the Hi begin above the top hole?

[runagmc]

Oshigata of Odenta- Miike Mitsuyo

[dnmmilo]

G'day Guys, I've attached a couple more photo's and can take more if anyone would like to see them. One of these pictures is of the edge of the nakago which looked as though it may have had a character on it, alternatively it may just have been the cicatrice from the oxidization. I've also photographed the unmarked side of the haft another of the whole blade. Lastly, there are some characters scratched into the seppa and tsuba. Thanks for all of the interest and information. Cheers David

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

The Tsuba and O-Seppa look to have Katakana hastily inscribed in an "amateur hand".

 

Possibly ホムロ Ho Mu Ro and ヨ Yo

 

Cheers

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean,

 

. Almost no fumbari, even width and wide shinogiji.

 

 

Please, read the description of O-Denta Mitsuyo shown below.

 

 

[Jean]

http://www.sho-shin.com/sai4.htm

 

If you prefer I'll change for little fumbari compare to the otther schools of same period.

 

Now take the measurements, moto haba/saki haba, take the definition of fumbari and have a look at the blade oshigata, if you see a very strong fumbari

 

Old blades are curved and evenly wide to the kissaki

 

BTW, I had the occasion of studying in hands two Miike swords, an utsushi and one juyo. If fumbari has to be taken as a kantei point, it is by its weakness. This comes from the fact that the blades are very large. This is the school which has probably produced the stoutest tachi.

 

Miike school is famed for having produced this kind of tachi for centuries.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Now take the measurements, moto haba/saki haba,

 

 

Difference = 1cm, some times seen in that era

 

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(7)%20No.553.htm

[Jean]

Yes exactly 3 bu, and they are evenly distributed along the blade which is perfectly normal for an ikubi kissaki (I don't call this fumbari) you will never see a real fumbari in an ikubi kissaki tachi (cf. Nakayama Kokan - The connoisseur's book of Japanese swords. P. 69) and it is mechanically perfectly understandable.

To have a real fumbari (a big tapering in the first few inches starting from the motohaba) the moto haba should be at least of 1,3 sun considering that apart the fumbari effect the tapering continues till a 9 bu sakihaba. This could not be possible with the characteristic of their bohi.

 

The Odenta was forged around Sho-ho and has a sugata of mid Kamakura. This is a characteristic of Miike school. From Heian to late Kamakura, their sugata have not changed, so early Miike swords are difficult to date.

[Jacques]

Jean,

 

3 bu on a blade which is short (65,7 cm) is not negligible, almost normal,

 

 

I think you misunderstand the word funbari :

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/kissaki.html#FUMBARI

 

The Odenta was forged around Sho-ho and has a suguta of mid Kamakura. This is a characteristic of Miike school.

 

No,

 

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

No confusion on funbari definition: very strong tapering from the base, which, of course, slows down.

 

The document you have attached shows that this blade is not considered as having a funbari:

 

As for this type of masculine construction in which the mihaba is wide and where there is little difference between the moto haba and the saki haba....

 

no place for funbari. The difference of width between moto haba and saki haba is considered as peanuts:

 

little difference

 

This is confirmed by the sentence you have underlined: this sentence states that two different sugata existed at the Heian period, the one with a strong funbari which is also seen at the beginning of Kamakura and this one, large with no funbari and an ikubi kissaki. The first one being more common.

 

What is unique in Miike school is that this sugata has survived for centuries and that associated with the large bohi and even width shinogi ji it is a kantei point for the Miike school.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Sorry Jean, but you don't know what funbari is.

[Stephen]

remove

[runagmc]

Regardless of which definition of funbari you want to use, I don't see either one in the oshigata (or pic) of 'Odenta'... There's very little taper overall, and there's not a 'widened stance' in the habaki-moto...

[Jean]

You are right, of course, but it does not matter Adam, as NMB members, thanks to Jacques attached sheet and the link I provided can judge by themselves this funbari matter:D

[dnmmilo]

G'day Jean,

 

I am most grateful to you and the other members for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. I have tried to follow your conversation as best I can (given my limited knowledge of the subject) but would really appreciate it if you could outline it in layman's terms for me as I am obviously interested in it and whether it applies to my sword.

 

Cheers David

[Jean]

David,

 

Very few signed examples from this school exist. The characteristic of this school from Heian to late Kamakura are:

 

- robust and large/stout blade with an even large shinogi ji which is fully covered by a single groove (bo hi), the shinogi when entering the nakago is almost in the middle of the blade.

 

In the link I have provided, you have all the details for the characteristics of the blades.

 

I draw ypur attention on the fact that:

 

- it remains very very few blades signed Mitsuyo

- the constant is a very large bo hi, very large because the shinogi ji is very large with no soe bi

- if you look at the grooves, they just enter the nakago, so this one is almost ubu or ubu as the signature remains

- look at your picture 509_08.jpg. This sword has not been polished often.

 

The nakago is suspicious, it seems it has been cleaned, no sign of yasurime which could induce a very old blade, but in total contradiction with the grooves which are fresh.

 

My opinion, a gimei or very bad utsushi of a Miike swords not so old (cf freshness of the grooves, lack of numerous polishes)

I draw also your attention on the hamachi which seems to be non existant (very ifficult to see from your pictures) which is in total contradiction with this sword having had few polishes. Not many ware for an old blade

 

But what do I know ......

[dnmmilo]

Thank you Jean,

 

You clearly know a great deal.

 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the state of the nakago is my doing. When I purchased the sword from Bob Harvey, the Tsuka was extremely difficult to remove. Bob and his father had kept the blade well oiled but the haft was very heavily oxidized and had fused into the wood of the Tsuka. While one character was very partially visible it certainly wouldn't have been possible to make out the signature without removing the encrusted oxidisation.

 

In retrospect, I realise I shouldn't have touched the sword but I now know better.

 

Cheers David