The study of menuki

[Fred Geyer]

Everyone here has these misunderstood little things hiding under big cords which hides almost half of its beauty and we quickly look at them and say they are "fill in the blank", those are nice!!

And here the question comes, you can't see if they signed and only see half of them, how do we know they are maybe the best part of the whole sword?

How do you tell if they are Goto or another great school with out seeing the back?? And Please do not cut them out to take photos to show!!

Everyone please share your menuki knowledge!

 

 

 

Fred Geyer

[kaigunair]

Well, I'll go ahead and respond since no one has yet.

 

I think most of the papered menuki are usually NOT ensuite. So you can examine the back/sides for signatures, as well as the stud which is a kantei point. Also, many tanto and tachi have non-wrapped hilts, which allows better access to the details.

 

For those menuki which are wrapped, I would assume attribution is based on looking at the other fittings, esp the f/k and determining if the menuki match the workmanship of those signed/more easily accessible items.

 

Lastly, there seems to be some body of knowledge when attributing the unsigned early Goto fittings to particular smiths, so I'm sure the same can be applied to what little window the tsuka wrapping affords to the menuki.

 

Along the same vein, I think there's a reason why the Goto didn't make tsuba in the beginning and why there's such a term as mitsukoromono. Maybe the wrapping earlier exposed more of the menuki, while later on, when the focused shifted to soft metal and tsubas got more "bling", it was more acceptable to turn to the more typical wrapping style we encounter today, and that covers more of the menuki....

[Brian]

It's usually not hard to judge menuki from the little you can see. You might not know if they are signed, but you can see quality easily.

If good quality, sometimes you just live with the fact that you don't know what they look like complete. One of those things.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Truly good menuki demonstrate both high quality in material and a high level of skill in workmanship. Sometimes you may see one or the other or some of both, but both need to be present for there to be a reasonable possibility of something greater hiding under the wrap based upon my experience. Still, there is nothing wrong with finding a B or B+ set, because the art work, or the uttori work, or some other detail was excellent, and don't forget the like factor. This of course raises the solito call for studying known works, especially of higher school and individual levels. Recognition, kantei, cannot be overemphasized enough. If the quality of the shakudo or shibuichi, etc., isn't mainline level, or say the scales aren't cut to mainline level work, it isn't a mainline piece in all likelihood. On this note there must be comparitive study, as temptation and desire can quickly turn us into blind fools.

 

While there is often correlation in quality between pieces in a mount, still, each piece needs to be evaluated on an individual basis as it is possible to find a solid A level piece mixed with B level pieces. Perhaps, the samurai or merchant owner just had to splurge on a particular piece, couldn't walk away, and sometimes those pieces are under wraps.

[Soshin]

Hi Fred G.,

 

Missed you at the Tampa show this year. I am always on the look out for a good quality tsuba box. Was able to pick up a nice wooden tsuba stand but no boxes this year. On the topic of high quality menuki the following set I have been looking at since February: http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/BM%20Ezo%20Nambokucho%20Shishi.htm. If I remember correctly Boris M. had these at his table. Their 6.2 cm size and thinness of the metal is amazing in my opinion along with the detail.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ford Hallam]

David

 

those 'Ezo' menuki raise some interesting questions. The thinness of the metal suggests that they were not actually made by the usual uchidashi process but rather stamped out in a die. To explain; no matter how fine a quality menuki you examine you will always see some variation in wall thickness of the sides of a menuki when looked at from the back. This is an unavoidable feature of the process by which they were formed. However, these 'Ezo' menuki are extremely thin AND practically perfectly uniform in thickness all around the edge. One might therefore argue that the maker of these 'Ezo' menuki was exceptionally skilful but even a cursory assessment of the workmanship as displayed on the front reveals them to be quite poorly made. The engraved detail alone is pretty sloppy. In fact some of the lines appear to me to incongruous in terms of how they seem to have worn away. By which I mean to suggest the apparent wear is not necessarily a result of great age at all...

 

In terms of the manufacture of the basic shapes the only logical explanation I can come up with is that they were formed by means of a preformed stamping die. Essentially a type of mass production. To be blunt, while I have seen some lovely pieces that are described as being 'Ezo tosogu' (not that anyone has actually put forward a shred of verifiable information relating to their origin or actual history as yet) the vast majority of pieces labelled such look to like late Edo crap.

 

regards,

 

fh

[Soshin]

Hi Ford H.,

 

I was studying these menuki as I was trying to visualize a Sengoku-jidai koshirae for a low to mid rank warrior and what type of menuki if any it would have. I already have a late Muromachi Period tsuba in my collection for this hypothetical koshirae. Could you provide a better example of a pre Edo Period menuki set?

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[kaigunair]

I have no horse in this race, but I've bought from the website operators in the past and found them both very helpful and honest. I'd like to point out that the description discusses in detail the production processes that went into these, and specifically states that there was some casting/die use in the production of these menuki and then finished with carving afterwards by a non-master smith. The explanation attributes this to a type of mass production that was common to this early period. Seems like that was fully disclosed in the explanation...

 

So I guess it would be interesting to know how to kantei if die stamped menuki are early vs. those which are actually meiji period made. So examples of die-stamp Muromachi period pieces would be the comparable, not completely hand stamp examples...

[Alex A]

Hi David, im also interested in menuki from the late muromachi period. Ive looked on most sites, most, if not all that i have come across are of the edo period. The pictures that i have come across of tensho kashirae dont show the menuki too well, they also look like they have been laquered along with the rest of the tsuka, maybe in the warring states period posh menuki where just for the hierarchy?

 

Alex.

[Pete Klein]

OK -- back on topic -- so Fred et. al., if you saw these hiding 'under the wraps' what would you think?

PS: and please don't tell me they are by Tomei -- DOH!

[b.hennick]

Buy the sword! If the price is right the menuki will pay for the whole thing. I am NOT suggesting that you strip the menuki from the blade.

[Ford Hallam]

Junichi,

 

I must confess I didn't read the explanation on the Yamabushi site but my point remains and you note it too, to wit;

 

So I guess it would be interesting to know how to kantei if die stamped menuki are early vs. those which are actually meiji period made.

 

I haven't seen any convincing evidence that earlier 'Ezo' menuki were actually stamped at all. These are simply unsubstantiated theories that are repeated without any serious critical examination. As far as I'm aware there hasn't yet even been any sort of proper metallurgical analysis of these so called 'Ezo' pieces. Yet we have an anomalous situation in the collecting field where certain pieces have been identified as belonging to this group and given a historical place and time...but none of it on the basis of any solid evidence.

 

The term 'Ezo Koshirae' as I understand it and as it seems to be understood in Japan refers to a fairly ornate and sophisticated mountings made for persons of high or aristocratic rank. It used to be thought that these pieces were made by the indigenous Ainu people but we now know they didn't possess a metalworking culture to speak of. John Harding suggests real 'Ezo fittings' should properly be called 'Sho-ki-kinko' or first period kinko and that they date from the late Heian period. The genuine items are made of heavily fire gilt yamagane and occasionally a varieties of bronze, also gilded.

 

I've now read the explanation on the Yamabushi site and the description of the manufacturing process is completely inaccurate and simply a flight of fancy. I've discussed those pine rosin copies of menuki on this forum before so I won't waste time explaining them again. But I do wish people who really don't know anything at all about Japanese metalworking processes would refrain from spreading so much inaccurate nonsense. Pressing metal sheet into a pine resin mould...that's just too funny for words and shibuichi is horribly stiff, all you'd get is a crushed lump of pitch and a dirtied bit of metal. As for "gilded with gold"...what else can you gild with?

 

It all reads as a post hoc theory to claim that what may well be late Edo mass produced pieces have some serious age and merit. I'm afraid it's all a bit too flimsy for my thinking and merely serves to muddy the waters of serious research.

 

Sorry to go on about this but the topic is about studying and evaluating menuki. I think I'd added some important points that are worth considering.

 

David,

 

I'll see if I can scan in some examples of pre-Edo Uchigatana mountings as carried by low ranked warriors. Many have no manuki, some higher ranked have Ko-mino menuki.

[nagamaki - Franco]

OK -- back on topic -- so Fred et. al., if you saw these hiding 'under the wraps' what would you think?

 

Pete,

 

Not sure how based on this image one can make a definitive judgment of any kind.

[kaigunair]

Very interesting! I appreciate the insight into the manufacturing process as well as the debate surrounding "Ezo" fittings. I haven't studied early fittings much because I'm still so enamoured with the machibori late edo schools and pieces.

 

Pete, those menuki look superb. I'd think definitely a major school, possibly solid gold. If not goto, then some famous offshoot like yoshioka?

[Brian]

No...they will be by Tomei...which is so clear I think Pete meant don't state the obvious

I think the point here is that even if you were to see a small part of menuki like these, it would be obvious that they were good quality. You don't need to see all of a menuki to know that somethign good lies beneath. In many cases, the litle bit you can see of menuki makes it clear that you are looking at something above average.

At least I hope that was the intended point

 

Brian

[Thierry BERNARD]

http://www.nihonto.us/ARAKI%20TOMEI%20MILLET%20MENUKI.htm

[Pete Klein]

Brian -- yes, that was exactly what I was getting at, along with the fact that the picture is labeled, 'Tomei'...

 

BTW, I had those for awhile and they were amazing. Tomei used a special punch technique and was so good no one ever was able to replicate his work. If you look closely you can see a subtle change in color where the ito crossed and the gold is slightly lighter.

[Ford Hallam]

You mean this technique, Pete

 

This is 10mm long btw. fine silver in steel. Gold is easier

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Pete,

 

Am still waiting and anxious to hear how you knew these were Tomei while still under wrap yet unknown to you or anyone else, which is my impression of what Fred originally asked, please do tell?

[Brian]

Franco,

Who said these were unknown to anyone else? I am sure everyone who saw them could see they were high class, and I doubt they were sold for any discount, even whilst mounted.

Even when wrapped, there is a lot of the menuki showing. Are you saying if you saw a small part of those menuki, you would not have associated them with either Tomei, or very high class copies? The thing about high quality work is that you can see it....even a small part of it should be indicative.

You can see technique, colour and detail in menuki without unwrapping them in most cases. Yes...you won't be able to confirm until you see the backs and/or if they are signed. But if you see poor carving initially, there is little chance the rest of them is any good.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

There's a pretty good chance I'd be able to identify them even under wraps as I have studied the works closely and there are specific details to the work of Tomei which nail the kantei. The menuki I posted were already removed from the wrap so it was of course easier (along with them having origami - doh).

 

PS: Ford -- keep working at it.

PPS: No, I won't tell you what they are. That you have to earn for yourself.

[Ford Hallam]

Pete,

 

If you commission me I will be able to...

[Pete Klein]

Sorry Ford - nobody paid me to go through eight years of college to do their dental work.

[nagamaki - Franco]

I have studied the works closely and there are specific details to the work of Tomei which nail the kantei

 

Ah, now we're getting somewhere, yes?

[Brian]

Well of course education is the key. You need to know what good work looks like before you can identify it. But that is obvious, no? Surely we don't need to explain that every time?

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Yup, and it has to be earned, not simply handed out. Spend a few years researching, buying books, traveling to shows, museums, club meetings, etc. and you'll appreciate the efforts of those who have gone before.

 

Something I must add here (after having some fun at Ford's expense) is that I honestly believe if there is one person alive who is capable of replicating Tomei's technique it is most likely Ford. I have seen a marked increase in his abilities over the years and the potential is obvious.

[Curran]

There's a pretty good chance I'd be able to identify them even under wraps as I have studied the works closely and there are specific details to the work of Tomei which nail the kantei. The menuki I posted were already removed from the wrap so it was of course easier (along with them having origami - doh).

 

PS: Ford -- keep working at it.

PPS: No, I won't tell you what they are. That you have to earn for yourself.

 

Took me a while and lot of reading to know some of the kantei points. I'm pretty sure Peter knows more about them than I do.

As is, Tomei's own 'students' didn't get it right either. He must have been pretty squirrelly with the ins and outs of how he did certain things.

 

My understanding is you did not mean to directly compare the menuki millet you made to Tomei's? While they are beautiful in their own right, one of the easiest kantei points for Tomei millet is very wide of the mark, therefore I interpret it more as you showing your version of working the millet for another of your design. I've admired your millet work before and from a biologist point of view like it as more natural than Tomei's "petite count" menuki.

 

As far as I'm aware there hasn't yet even been any sort of proper metallurgical analysis of these so called 'Ezo' pieces.

 

Ford, the work and articles are out there. Have been for many years.

Peter or others might point you at some of them.

 

 

The depth and breadth of your knowledge with regards to Tosogu far exceeds most of ours. Yet given the size and complexity of the field, there must be some limitations.

As much as I know of trading operations, markets, and equities and options trading after 2 decades of it in a profession that usually kicks people out after 3 years...., yes I can trade Uranium futures. I also easily acknowledge that the significant personal experience in other areas may not make me a defacto veteran able to wade into a Uranium futures trading pit and lay about chunking lemons at the heads of those taking the other sides of my trades. You've recently publicly derided a few people and their studies where I happen to agree with the other side of the argument.

Your veteran position is more than respected. Less lemons, onegaishimasu.

 

I would agree with Peter that you seem to be getting into the Michael Jordan years of your game.

[Ford Hallam]

Curran,

 

thanks, but I believe I do actually have everything in English and am still unconvinced by the addition to this misnamed group of pieces I consider to be late Edo 'revival pieces'

 

What you call deriding other's research I simply regard as honest critique. I'm always careful to explain why I disagree and where I believe an error (either factual in metallurgical terms or of interpretation) may have been made. Everyone is free is draw their own conclusions based on their own knowledge and understanding. But perhaps if there was less speculation presented as 'accepted wisdom' there'd be less need for such a critical eye. And you're obviously correct, there are limitations to anyone's expertise but simply stating that does nothing to describe those limitations. A proper debate and examination of the evidence presented will though.

 

The fact that they are apparently analysed as shibuichi alone is problematic if we're to consider an early date. Not to mention the practice of gilding an alloy that contains a precious metal in significant proportion. Unless the colour you want to show through the worn gilt needs to look like early work made from a silvery/grey yamagane alloy (the As causes the silvery tint).

[raiden]

For the original topic, tsuka from a original Muromachi period mount (still has the blade intact), old lacquer still remains on the tsukaito and the fuchi kashira. As you can see, the menuki of Oxen are of Ko Goto style, and are very high and thick in manufacture (shape). Typical med - low level bushi mounting for battle.

[raiden]

from what i can see, and from studying other similiar pieces, without seeing the backs, Ko Goto is the best one can do for judgment with out taking them out (God Forbid)