raiden Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Bear with me folks, this is a test to settle a bet. What is the subject of this set of menuki? Quote
Henry Wilson Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Hi Mike The pictures are bit hard to make out but here are my thoughts. The menuki look like a small furry animal fighting with a dragon. Or the dragon is changing into the animal or vic versa. The rat and dragon are supposed to be a good combination for some reason. I am sure some net searching will reveal more. How much is the bet? Quote
Alex A Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Hi Mike, ive read of koi turning into dragons, could this be a rat turning into a dragon?, think it as something to do with the rats tail, from what ive read. Not sure if thats correct, just a guess. Alex. Quote
ilikesword Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I think it is the classic theme of the Dragon and Tiger. But poorly done. I have never seen any Kodogu with Dragon and Rat theme. Quote
Henry Wilson Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Is the dragon giving birth, generating or otherwise producing the furry animal? Quote
Alex A Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Or maybe the dragons tail turns into the rat ,i think it as someting to do with the tails, sorry im not helping with your bet, but i am curious... Alex Quote
raiden Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Posted April 12, 2013 now does that thing really look like a rat? Quote
Henry Wilson Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 The snout sure doesn't look like a rat. Could it be a shape-shifting fox or tanuki known as mujina 貉? Quote
Alex A Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 More like a rat than a tiger, admittedly, an aggressive looking rat, if its a tiger then it could have been done better. Now ive got a guy at the side of me in work telling me its a monkey :D , i give up... Alex Quote
kunitaro Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Isn't it Dragon and Tiger ? 龍虎・竜虎 (Ryuko/Ryoko) as common theme. two heros however, they are not look like fighting each other, they look like good friend ?? Quote
John A Stuart Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 A depiction of Sun Wukong? John Quote
Tanto54 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Dragon and Tiger often used to symbolize heaven and earth (or other Yin and Yang connotation). Quote
Ed Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Looks like dragon and tiger. Not sure of the symbolism of this depiction. They don't seem to be at odds, more like frolicking. Perhaps a more Chinese meaning of Emperor and Empress. ????????? Quote
raiden Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Posted April 12, 2013 now can anyone find a pic of a menuki set of dragon and rat? Quote
raiden Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Posted April 12, 2013 that is similiar in layout and esign? Quote
raiden Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Posted April 12, 2013 here is a close up of the face Quote
Pete Klein Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 This is attributed to Goto Tokujo as Tiger theme: from NBTHK book on kozuka, 1995. Quote
Alex A Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Hi Mike, it must be a tiger, since looking at images of rat menuki ive come round to the idea it must be a tiger, allthough not the most obvious tiger ive seen. Alex. Quote
hxv Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I dunno guys. It could be Dragon and Tiger, but the way the two figures intertwine, I just don't feel it's cut-and-dry. The dragon and the tiger, in Asian cultures in general, represent supremacy in heaven and on earth, respectively. As I understand it, the dragon is regal, wise, and intellectual. The tiger is fierce with indomitable strength and spirit. But, they represent different spheres of influence and different qualities, for lack of better expression - the dragon reigns supremacy in the heavens and the tiger on earth. So, the dragon is the emblem of the royal family and the tiger usually the emblem of military commanders of the highest rank (at least in the Chinese and Vietnamese cultures). In depictions of struggles between Dragon and Tiger, I would think they represent power struggles between the Emperor and his military. I would be hard pressed to think of a situation, from a historical point of view, when the Dragon and the Tiger would be so intertwined and harmonious as depicted in Mike's menuki. Personally, I don't think they are Dragon-Tiger, but Dragon and something else. Don't know what, though. I am probably way off course here, so, shoot me down... Hoanh Quote
raiden Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Posted April 12, 2013 unfortunately they are veyr very dirty, and of poor quality. But yes they are dragon and tiger, rats do not have such a rounded face or heavy headed style. Tigers were sometimes done porrly as they were not indigineous to Jap[an, and there were few good examples to view. I was provong a point that poor pics, lead to poor kantei on websites, its not good if your clientele can't tell what it is you are selling. Quote
Brian Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I think George M called it well, especially with the pics he showed of a tiger and dragon in a similar pose. Don't think rat had much chance Brian Quote
Alex A Posted April 13, 2013 Report Posted April 13, 2013 Haha, come on Jean, it does look like a rat, well, maybe in my opinion. :D A bear maybe? mongoose? merecat? :lol: Alex Quote
Henry Wilson Posted April 13, 2013 Report Posted April 13, 2013 Good joke Jean Mike, how much was the bet? Who won? Quote
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