Hamon Excercise

[Grey Doffin]

Hi guys,

Following up on the hada exercise in another thread, here is one where you have to guess the smith or school from only an oshigata. All 4 blades are Koto and all 4 have Juyo papers (pix are from Juyo Token Nado Zufu). I've tried to pick smiths whose work is distinctive, not easily confused with another school. Don't bother PMing your answers to me because I won't keep track; might as well post them here.

Grey

[Alex A]

If possible Grey let it run for a few days, this bookworming takes time.

 

Alex.

[templar44]

Just for fun.

1. Osafune Chikkakage

2. Bizen Sukemune

3. Seki Naotsuna

4. Yamato Shizu

 

The first three I thought were reasonable for what I could see but the naginata was what I found difficult to place. I mean I am probably wrong on all counts but from just a picture they seem somewhat reasonable.

Tony Martin :?

[Veli]

...and then to boldly show how little I know :

 

1) Tegai Kanenaga

2) Chu-Aoe

3) Den Masamune

4) Ko-Hoki

 

 

EDIT: took a spoiler in use in order not to mislead others :D

 

Veli

[paulb]

Hi Grey,

Thanks for this it is a great follow on to the hada exercise and it is fun to have the tables turned and have to do some work.

I am trying to ignore the answers so far and work my way through them. If possible and to help narrow it down a little it would be helpful to know if the hamon are nie or nioi deki. Would that be possible?

[Grey Doffin]

 

Nie

 

Grey

[paulb]

thank you (I think )

[Grey Doffin]

Let me clarify my remark about Nie or Nioi. The blades come from traditions that worked in the deki I listed, with the exception of one of the 4 which comes from the other deki but worked in the one I listed.

How's that for clarity?

Grey

[paulb]

Thanks for doing this Grey. I find this more of a challenge than either the shape or hada exercises but then I guess I had the inside track on those. When doing the NBTHK kantei which is based on the same quality images as the ones you posted I realise how much I depend on the description telling me what I cant necessarily see in the oshigata. That combination should, and occassionaly does, lead me to the right conclusion. With these looking just at the hamon, particularly those which are largely suguha I am trying to narrow down the response from a possible half dozen to 1 or 2. Not very confident I have got them right but felt obliged to have a go :D

 

1. Unsho group

2. Aoe or Mihara

3 late Shikkake or Shizu

4 Norishige

 

[Mark]

1. disqualify myself

 

2. Rai

 

3. Hasabe

 

4. Kaneuji

[Alex A]

1) RAI KUNIZANE

 

2) SUE BIZEN (AGAIN LOL)

 

3) AWATAGUCHI

 

4) CLUELESS

 

Alex.

[cabowen]

Here's my off the cuff take:

 

1. Yamato

2. Rai

3. Hasebe

4. Bizen (Nagamori?)

[Grey Doffin]

One more day and I'll give the answers.

Grey

[mdiddy]

1. Enju

 

2. Aoe Sadatsugu

 

3. Shizu

 

4. Shikkake

[ilikesword]

1: Enju

 

2: Unju

 

3: Hasebe

 

4: Taima

[Grey Doffin]

The answers are:

 

1. Ko Mihara. Sayagaki says Enbun to Joji (1356-1362). This is a cut down O-dachi. Mihara comes out of Yamato Den. Expect nijuba in good early Mihara work.

2. Rai Kunimitsu.

3. Den Chogi. This is Soden Bizen. Chogi is thought to have been a student of Masamune: a Bizen smith working in the Soshu tradition.

4. Den Norishige. Another student of Masamune: Etchu working in Soshu.

Grey

[paulb]

Grey,

Thanks very much for doing this. I think it was an interesting exercise. Not wanting to draw too broad a conclusion for what has, between the three things we have tried, been a fairly limited sample, I think there are some points worth considering.

1. I think in both the hada and the hamon exercises people were offeing understandable answers and while few were totally correct the conclusions were understandable. I think also the results for hada were marginally better than for hamon.

2. I wonder if it his is because we focussed on koto. I think it is generally accepted that during the koto period steel was produced locally. This created individual characteristics in the jigane which offer clues as to the origin of a particular work. By the time we get to Shinto steel is produced more centrally and therefore the hada in shinto swords becomes more cuniform in appearance with less local variation.

3. As a way of differenctiating work in the Shinto period more school specific hamon start to appear such as the toran of Sukehiro, the sudare-ba of the mishina school and many others.

 

I wonder if we did the exercises again based on shinto work we might see a more accurate result for hamon and less for hada? Maybe something for the future.

I think one conclusion I have drawn from this is something we always quote but are often guilty of failing to do. We need to assess the sword in it's entirity. Looking first at shape, then hada, hamon and nakago. Only when viewing the blade as a whole are we likely to make a realistic kantei.

Thanks again Grey we must do some more in a while and once we have recovered!

[Alex A]

Thanks Grey, as expected i failed miserably, i found this very difficult. Again, a good learning exercise for me, i dont get to see many blades in the flesh so to speak and this is a good way for me to pick up on a few things, good to look at blade characteristics individually. Hopefully will broaden my scope.

 

 

Alex

[runagmc]

Thanks Grey,

I am really surprised at #3... It appears to have sunagashi running all through the peaks of the hamon. I haven't seen many swords of, or read much about Chogi, but from what I have seen and read I would never have guessed Soden Bizen... :? I thought Naotsuna was a good guess...

 

PS-I would sure love to see that Norishige... naginata naoshi?

[cabowen]

I think Naotsuna was a good guess- I have seen Naotsuna, Chogi, as well as Hasebe and of the three I wouldn't have thought this the work of Chogi...perhaps this shows the difficulty in judging a book by its cover...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

PS-I would sure love to see that Norishige... naginata naoshi?

 

 

Den Norishige, not Norishige himself. Same for Choji.

[runagmc]

Den in front of the name refers to the smith... den after the name refers to the tradition. At least thats my understanding... here is what Darcy wrote about this on his site,

 

" One very important thing to note is that if Den is used before the name of a swordsmith, it is not talking about a tradition. For example, Den Kinju or Den Niji Kunitoshi means in regards to an example of their work that it is not exactly the sum of their known characteristics.

 

In the case of these smiths where many unsigned works have been attributed, the characteristics are formed from old written reports and what can be observed in the realm of the signed works left to us. For smiths with only few (or no) signed works left, it makes it hard to establish a complete reference to their overall style. Given that a smith could work for decades, and styles evolved, it should be clear how difficult it can be to make a perfect reference out of a handful of examples. When Den is used like this, the work may be considered to have a small number of features that are over and above the expectations for the smith, or it may be missing a small number of features. It absolutely does not mean that the work was made (or possibly made) by one of the smith's students and it is not a mark of uncertainty of the attribution"

 

I've also read an article by Bob Benson which confirms this, and if I remember right, in Mr. Benson's article he specifically states that the NBTHK uses 'den' in this manner. If anyone knows better, feel free to correct me...

[Brian]

Thanks again a good exercise.

I think it would be beneficial if you could now post a short summary of what people were seeing, and what factors led to the correct smith. In other words, what traits in the given oshigata led to the answer.

I would also love to see some reasons given for the guesses by members, so that people can gain knowledge and understand the choices.

 

Brian

[mdiddy]

I would also love to see some reasons given for the guesses by members, so that people can gain knowledge and understand the choices.

 

This was a great and challenging exercise. It was hard to pinpoint a specific smith based solely on hamon (and maybe kissaki and bo-hi). Just knowing hada in conjunction with hamon would have been very helpful. For example, being able to interpret chirimen hada from Rai hada for #2 or observing matsukawa hada for #4.

 

#3 was especially challenging because I think it shows conflicting attributes (maybe why shinsa gave it Den Chogi). I found it particularly confounding because of the yakitsume boshi with hakikake.

 

I chose Enju for #1 because of the suguha and what looked like a second line of nie paralleling the boshi. Aoe Sadatsugu for #2 because of chu-suguha, nezumi ashi, prevalent yo. Shizu for #3 because nothing else seemed to encompass Soshu and Yamato and because I did not think Grey would have the gall to post a Masamune oshigata (psychology did play a failing part in my answers). #4 was a bit of a stab with Shikkake and considered a suguha based gunome with threads running through.

[paulb]

Following Brians request I have listed below the reasoning behind the answers I gave (all but one wrong!)

 

1. Ko-Mihara- I said Unshu group.

When I first lookd I believed this could be a number of schools, Rai, Enju, Mihara etc. I was not happy with the boshi and the hi which ends well back from the kisski. I had not seen this in the schools mentioned. On scanning through koza and other references I did see a simialr hamon, boshi and hi on an Unji blade so opted for that.

 

2. I said Aoe answer Rai Kunimitsu.

Suguha with this type of small ashi is seen in a number of schools. I went with Aoe based on the slightly pointed nature of the boshi which is typical of chu-Aoe and also the busy ko-choji seen near the ha-machi which again I have seen in many chu-Aoe works.

 

3. I said Shizu or late Shikkake answer Chogi.

I dont understand this one at all. The boshi looks Yamato. there is a huge amount of activivity running through the boshi inthe form of Sunagashi. Were the hamon less flabouyant I would have said Shikkake Nobunaga. A classic Shikkake feature is the hada becoming masame as it enters the hamon creating this type of sunagashi and the brushed hamon. Becuse the hamon was so active I felt it had more Soshu influence (which of course it did) so went for Shizu or very late Shikkake. I think with 50 or more answers I would still not have picked up Gogi on this one. I have learned something more!!

 

4. Den Norishige- I said Norishige I dont know from where or when but I recognised the sword. I was going to disqualify myself from this but then realised recognition is what it is about and the fact I had remembered it was part of how we learn.

 

So one out of 4, if in school I think the report would be "Must try harder". However it was a very useful thing to do and I hope we can do more of these going forward. I do think we need to start looking at more detail in combination (Beginning o sound like kantei through the back door) to be able to make more accurate assessment.

 

edited to correct an early morning slip. should have said Norishige not Naotsuna (must be getting old)

[Alex A]

I have limited knowledge and book resources, to be honest im just glad that i gave it ago, I knew no1 was an early sword, just tried to find a match with the books i have, i could match the kissaki, but not the hamon, obviously my attemps where longshots. No 2, similar story, no3 had a boshi id not come acoss, yakitsume, if im correct, the hamon was very distinctive, basically i just searched the net for koto matches to these points, not the way to do things, but as i said its very difficult with what i have and the knowledge i have..

 

Alex

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

There is only one hamon which is really representative, it's Rai.

 

Grey can you show us the Den Norishige Zufu please ?

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jacques, Sorry; I don't remember which Zufu I took that photo from.

Paul, Norishige, not Naotsuna.

I'll do this again sometime soon. Cheers, Grey

[cabowen]

I would agree with Jacques (did I really just type that? :lol: )....in that the only textbook hamon shown was the Rai....I wouldn't kick myself too hard for not answering more accurately....

[paulb]

thanks Grey

too many things going on early in the morning. I did say Norishige in the answer I will edit my slip.

Jacques

I think I might have the Zufu copy with the Norishige (I must have known it from somewhere) If I find it I will send it to you

cheers