Original prices of gendai-to (and shinshin-to)

[Bruno]

Hello gentlemen,

 

I was wondering what were the original prices of gendai-to when they were sold to their first owners in 1930/1940.

 

A good friend told me that according to the book "The Yasukuni Swords" by Tom Kishida (Kodansha), on page 58 is a list of prices for Yasukunito by Yasuoki in 1942. The prices are varying depending on the quality of the forging (in Shinsa panel)...90Y, 105Y, 120Y, 130Y. Of course this was the official price set by the smith and the Army, but because these were so popular they also went to maybe 250Y "behind closed doors".

 

Also, in 1930-1940s a good shinshinto blade was maybe 25Y says John Yumoto in "The Samurai Sword".

 

I checked website Oanda and found today rate between USD and Yen is : 1 USD = 82 Y.

 

If anybody has these original prices for some RJT, Yasukuni, Minatogawa smiths or even shinhin-to smiths, and if someone knows what was the value of the Japanese Yen in these years 1930/1940, we will be able to compare these original prices with today market prices.

 

I think it would be very interesting to measure their real increase of value for the last 67 years.

 

Thanks

[Mark]

seems I read somewhere that an officer's sword could cost a junior officer 2-3 months pay. I am not sure the exchange rate at the time but if the above is correct we can figure the cost based on average military officers pay now and see what 2-3 months income is

[Drago]

A very interesting topic. It would be nice if you could provide a translation between 30s-40s USD to today's USD.

 

I suggest that this be expanded to include older swords. e.g. How much did an Oda retainer have to pay for his sword, or a Shinsengumi member?

[Bruno]

Thanks Mark and Tobias.

 

Yes I wanted also to expend the topic to shin-to and ko-to but don't know if it is possible to have reliable informations. It seems that the Japanese Yen was introduced in 1871, that is why I did not mention older swords than shinshin-to.

[Drago]

Wait a second. I used an online converter (how much was a 1942 USD worth compared to today).

 

If the numbers you provided are correct, a 130Y sword would be 23 bucks today. These numbers can't be right. A sword couldn't possibly have been that cheap! Did you forget some zeros?

[Bruno]

Hi Tobias,

 

Yes I know it is not a lot of Yen....These infos were given to me, I hope my friend can confirm or someonelse who has the book.

 

I guess Yen at that time was much stronger than today.

[Kai-Gunto]

I think I read somewhere that a sword costed a month payment.

[John A Stuart]

The following shows relative values of the yen using GDP and CPI. Prior to the occupation these are unobtainable and the yen really changed. So in 1930 with 1 yen being 1290 yen a sword would cost @130 yen in 2011 yen 167,700 yen so around 1500 dollars. Not so ridiculous eh?

 

In 2011, 1.00 ¥ from 1940 is worth:

 

 

 

 

859.00 ¥

 

using the Consumer Price Index

 

Data for the GDP Deflator is not available for the years before 1952.

Data for the Average Monthly Wage is not available for the years before 1948.

Data for the nominal GDP per capita is not available for the years before 1952.

Data for the real GDP per capita is not available for the years before 1952.

Data for the nominal GDP is not available for the years before 1952

 

 

In 2011, 1.00 ¥ from 1930 is worth:

 

 

 

 

1,290.00 ¥

 

using the Consumer Price Index

 

Data for the GDP Deflator is not available for the years before 1952.

Data for the Average Monthly Wage is not available for the years before 1948.

Data for the nominal GDP per capita is not available for the years before 1952.

Data for the real GDP per capita is not available for the years before 1952.

Data for the nominal GDP is not available for the years before 1952.

 

 

In 2011, 1.00 ¥ from 1952 is worth:

 

 

 

 

6.47 ¥

 

using the Consumer Price Index

 

 

 

 

5.83 ¥

 

using the GDP deflator

 

 

 

 

24.40 ¥

 

using the average monthly wage

 

 

 

 

51.10 ¥

 

using the nominal GDP per capita

 

 

 

 

8.79 ¥

 

using the real GDP per capita

 

 

 

 

75.60 ¥

 

using the nominal GDP

[cabowen]

The sword contests held in the 1930's and '40's were not just contests but also allowed the attendees to buy the swords exhibited. I have records of all the entries with the asking price of each sword. Sword by lower ranked smiths were around 90 yen as I recall, with top finishing blades by top smiths of the time at levels many times that. I think the highest price blade I recall was by Kurihara Akihide at 1000 yen...That would have been a tremendous amount at the time....Newly made swords by top smiths have never been cheap...

[Eric H]

From the book...

[george trotter]

Hi all, although the relative cost of a sword in 1942 may have been the equivalent of (say) US$23...in Japan the buying power of the equivalent of $23 would have been very high...way out of proportion to what $23 could buy in US...remember, wages and life costs were quite low, so $23 was a lot of money then.

I can't be precise, but I remember reading about French buyers of Japanese art and antiquities in the Meiji era making absolute fortunes when re-selling the items in Europe that they had bought in Japan for (to them) next to nothing.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

[cabowen]

As I said, newly made blades were quite expensive...I will dig out some of the exhibition info with prices and post it later....

 

As far as the quote above from Kapp and Yoshihara about the government requiring Showa stamps to differentiate traditional and non-traditional blades, I would like to see supporting documentation that confirms that as I have seen information that indicates the Showa stamp has a different origin.

[Eric H]

Excerpt from a lecture by Professor Lia Baretta (Italy)

 

"After five months he was offered a three-year contract with a monthly salary of 450 yen and a house; this was one of the highest salaries paid to a foreigner...(1875)"

Edoardo Chiossone Museum, Genoa

 

Eric

[runagmc]

As I said, newly made blades were quite expensive...I will dig out some of the exhibition info with prices and post it later....

 

As far as the quote above from Kapp and Yoshihara about the government requiring Showa stamps to differentiate traditional and non-traditional blades, I would like to see supporting documentation that confirms that as I have seen information that indicates the Showa stamp has a different origin.

Can you go into anymore detail?

[cabowen]

Check out Omura's site. He has some info there that indicates the Showa stamp was used by smiths in Seki on showa-to as an indicator that the blades had passed a kind of quality control process in response to poorly made blades. It had nothing to do with the government deciding that it was too hard to differentiate traditionally made blades from showa-to.

 

Again, I would like to see what Kapp and Yoshihara have to substantiate their claim. Knowing the level of research that Omura has done, I am more inclined to believe his info....

[runagmc]

So... by that theory, I wonder why we don't see swords that appear to be traditionally made with the Showa stamp... if it was only a quality/inspection mark. Could it have been an inspection stamp used only in factories mass-producing non-traditional swords?

 

PS- I know this subject has been dicussed over and over on this board before, so forgive me if you've already answered these questions...

[cabowen]

So... by that theory, I wonder why we don't see swords that appear to be traditionally made with the Showa stamp... if it was only a quality/inspection mark. Could it have been an inspection stamp used only in factories mass-producing non-traditional swords?

 

PS- I know this subject has been dicussed over and over on this board before, so forgive me if you've already answered these questions...

 

 

Yes, it was only used on showa-to, as said above. Later, they used the Seki stamp, according to Omura.

[Bob M.]

Hi,

Have a look on Darcy Brockbank's nihonto.ca site - in his swords for sale section is a kogarasu maru style blade by Gassan Sadakatsu . There is also some info dating back to the 20/30's on selling prices for new blades from this master.

[Ichi]

Quote from Darcy's Gassan Sadakatsu Kogaratsu Maru "The charge to have these custom made blades in 1930 , delivered to a port in the UK or USA was 2,000 yen -or- 200 Pounds Sterling -or- $1,000 US dollars. " unquote

 

ichi

[Surfson]

Very interesting thread guys. I don't have much to add, other than that we appear to have overlooked the change in value of the Yen aside from inflation effects. Wikipedia reviews it. Originally during Meiji, the yen was set to be worth .78 ounces of silver, which made it close to parity to the dollar. There was some devaluation of the yen as gold outpaced silver in value, and western currencies were based on gold. However, the yen lost most of its value during WWII, ending up falling from about two yen per dollar to 360 yen per dollar as a result of the war. So when we talk of Meiji times, a yen was worth roughly a dollar, and the values that have been used in this thread make more sense if thought of in terms of dollars in the mid 1900s.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_yen

[Surfson]

By the way, many years ago I bought a collection of yanone that had the original price tags on them, presumably from early 20th century. The good ones cost 3-5 yen, and the common ones were 1 yen!

[bmlusk1911]

Just another possible way to think of this, what was a junior officer making during that era, then extrapolate a relative price based on the "month's pay."

 

I could only find the U.S. pay tables from as far back as 1949 at the Department of Defense Finance and Accounting Service.

 

O-1 (2d Lieutenants & Ensigns) made $213.75 per month during their first 2 years of service. Today, the same butter bar, would be paid $2828.40....

 

Despite being just as worthless. The only reason a 2d Lieutenant has any value is because we let them wear gold bars....

 

So, using this train of thought, $213.75ish back in the WWII Era. Now valued about $3,000ish.....

 

Not the most logical argument I've made, but just was thinking outside the box.

MilPayTable1949.pdf

MilPayTable2012_1.pdf

[george trotter]

Hi all, I happened to glance in F & G "Jap. Mil. & Civ. Swords & Dirks" p.75 and it mentions sword prices in yen (sorry if this has already been quoted)...

In 1944 a 2nd Lt. was paid an ave. of 70.83 yen / month.

A Lt.Col started at 220 yen / month.

A Yasukunito was sold direct for 120 yen in 1940 and 170 yen in 1944...if it went through the Kaikosha it was 50% more....that is 170 yen in 1940 and 255 yen in 1944.

It seems that if someone can find out the equivalent prices for a 1940 made Yasukunito and one from 1944 we may be on the road to knowing if they have risen/stayed the same etc.

 

Unfortunately I don't know the prices charged to officers by the RJT sytem for a gendaito, but if I have read Gunto Kumiai Shimatsu p.58 right the Fukushima Ken smiths who participated in the scheme in 1944 were paid about 45 yen per sword to produce. This was after the cost of the tamahagane and charcoal supplied to him had been taken into consideration (I think). So, the cost of the forging, the materials, with polishing and mounting would be passed on to the officer, so the cost was probably less than the Yasukunito, but certainly not cheap?

(Chris B may correct/verify this comment)...so, since RJT blades can be obtained cheaper than Yasukunito today it would be fair to say that they have not held their price as well as Yasukunito...but some do go upwards quite well.

Regards,

[cabowen]

Yasukuni-to were expensive when first sold and they have become expensive once again due to their popularity fostered by the articles, books, etc., which have pushed them into the limelight. One could argue quite easily that they are overvalued in relation to other blades of the period as a result of all the attention given them. One can say the same for blades by Asano Kanezane, Ichihara Nagamitsu, and Emura. There are smiths every bit as good (or much better when it comes to Kanezane, Ichihara Nagamitsu, and Emura) who are unknown and sell for a fraction. Of course the Yasukuni blades have a very compelling back story which appeals to many and plays a part in their popularity as well.

 

 

Here are some of the prices asked for blades in the 1941 Shinsaku Nihonto Tenrankai:

 

Smiths in the top rank:

 

Kurihara Akihide: 1000yen

 

Yoshihara Kuniie: 300 yen

 

Tsukamoto Okimasa: 500yen

 

Kajiyama Takenori (Yasunori): 1000yen

 

Smiths in the 1st seat:

 

Miyairi Akihira: 350 yen

 

Fujiwara Kanefusa: 350 yen

 

Smiths in the 2nd seat:

 

Murayama Kanetoshi: 300 yen

 

Kato Sanehira: 200 yen

 

Smiths in the 3rd seat:

 

Fukumoto Amahide: 150 yen

 

Imai Kanetsugu: 200 yen

 

Smiths in the 4th seat:

 

Mizuno Masanori: 150 yen

 

Goto Kanehiro: 180 yen

 

Smiths in the 5th seat:

 

Tsukamoto Masakazu: 180 yen

 

Ota Tadakiyo: 150 yen

 

Prices asked at the 1938 Tenrankai just four years earlier were 1/2 to 1/3 of these, which shows the effects of a war era economy....

[george trotter]

That is interesting info Chris.

Even at the lower seats a price of 200, 150, 180 yen etc is no cheap sword in 1941....as a 2nd Lt was then probably making less than 70 yen / month...of course I presume the price for an average smith's work would be for a polished and gunto mounted sword. Maybe some of the greats could charge the price just to make a finished sword, maybe mounting was extra?

 

I think perhaps there are too many variables to properly determine a comparable price today for swords. For example, buying on ebay, many of our members would sneak in a lucky bid on an un-noticed sword and get it well below it's Japanese (or Western) dealer price...and again even this value is variable; eg. a buyer in Australia has a higher average annual income than a buyer from USA (starting teacher here is $60,000AU while in USA it is around $27,000US I believe) and our dollar is very strong...so say $2000US to us is a medium price, but to an equivalent buyer in USA it is much more of an outlay.

 

Of course, there is always smith/history popularity...as Chris says about Kanezane etc, these seem to have taken off simply because info became available on them in the 1980s...while today still due to a relative lack of collector awareness of other contemporary smiths there are MANY finer makers laying ignored and thus cheaper.

 

Regards,

[Bruno]

Very interesting Chris and George, really enjoying your gendaito knowledge. Thank you so much!