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NBTHK papering and Tsuba with questionable Kin zogan mei

Curran

By Curran
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Curran Grand Master

Curran

Posted
Posted

I have recently seen a tsuba up for sale that screams to me work of a Nishigaki school artisan.

I owned a near identical one years ago, papered to "Nishigaki"

 

The one up for sale is unpapered. It has a kin zogan signature that I interpret to be an attribution.

But the "signature" is to a Jingo artist. Does the NBTHK kill this one as gimei?

 

____Please, no debate about whether the mei is right or wrong____

 

To simplify the question: How does the NBTHK regard incorrect kin zogan attributions on tsuba ?

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Soshin Grand Master

Soshin

Posted
Posted

Hi Curren,

 

I remember being told by someone that the NBTHK will fail it and would not igoure the false attribution. The specific case that I remember was for a Nihonto. Not completely sure for Tosogu. If the attribution can be safely removed I would do so. This was done to nakago of a Nihonto and it later passed after failing once before with the false attribution.

 

PS Thank for the tsuba boxes.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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Jean

Jean

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Curran,

 

At the opposite, I think I remember having seen blade with shumei or kinzogan mei papered by NBTHK to other smith.

 

Shumei/kinzogan mei, are just kanteisho on the artefact, and by the past, nbthk has already issued different kanteisho for the same blade.

 

It is not gimei

 

Now, perhaps Henry or tsuba guys can answer the question.

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Curran Grand Master

Curran

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David: The boxes go out soon. Thanks, as it helps pay the bills.

Glad to have 2008-2009 in the rear view mirror, but housing bills like to crop up randomly. This year it is roofing and deck repairs.

Whatever induced me to buy such a large old house. Should have waited until we had kids.

 

Tom: I have NO interest in buying the tsuba. I haven't heard back if one of my friends might be. More his thing, but no opinion yet. No photos till then.

 

Jean: With swords, I thought it was as David said. Wrong inlaid mei = rejected for papers.

However, as thin kinzogan for a signature- the tsuba mei would be easy to remove. I have also seen a tsuba where I forget what the hitch was,

but it had punch marks to indicate a particular Kamiyoshi smith. It obviously wasn't. The NBTHK papers decided to say "Higo" in classical Japanese vagueness.

 

BUT... not sure how the NBTHK would handle this mistaken (my opinion) mei. Would they simply paper it to "Higo" or not paper it at all?

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christianmalterre Mentor

christianmalterre

Posted
Posted

Curran,

 

what would be the fees so to get Hozon?

(the very last time i did submit something is years ago-and it was around 400 DM/500 DM (Deutsche Mark!)

(Agent not included)

 

I´d say-just try out this lottery if the actual resulting fees won´t exaggerate?

Really don´t know how this is dealt actually...

 

 

Christian

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Henry Wilson Veteran

Henry Wilson

Posted
Posted

I have no real experience with shinsa (never submitted anything / only observed a few NTHK-NPO ones in my early days of collecting). I usually go on the opinion of senior Japanese collectors I know which is quicker, cheaper and usually a lot more educational than a regular shinsa from what I gather.

 

However, personally I think the tsuba would bounce with a kin zogan, pretty much as a "gimei" would. I have also heard that to remove a signature of any type from a tsuba is much more difficult than a sword, mainly becasue it is very difficult to repair the patina.

 

Cheers

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raiden Proficient

raiden

Posted
Posted

I have recently seen a tsuba up for sale that screams to me work of a Nishigaki school artisan.

I owned a near identical one years ago, papered to "Nishigaki"

 

The one up for sale is unpapered. It has a kin zogan signature that I interpret to be an attribution.

But the "signature" is to a Jingo artist. Does the NBTHK kill this one as gimei?

 

____Please, no debate about whether the mei is right or wrong____

 

To simplify the question: How does the NBTHK regard incorrect kin zogan attributions on tsuba ?

 

________Mr Curran wrote the above:_________

Unfortunately without seeing the tsuba in a clear fashion, it is difficult to see if there is an actual kinzogan mei or an attribution put there properly (not trying to be a fake signature). As far as Higo tsuba go, those that are serious students know tha there are examples seen by Matashichi and Rakuju with kinzogan signatures that are have been deemed genuine. However, in my experience, I have not seen any examples of Jingo, Nishigaki, Hirata, Suwa, Kumagai or Toyama.... that have kinzogan mei that have been deemed genuine by the NBTHK. But in my experience, usually the NBTHK will A). Paper the tsuba if they deem the kinzogan mei correct such as in the case of Hayashi Matashichi or Kamiyoshi Rakuju. B). Fail the piece if they feel it is not an appropriate signature or attribution not deemed genuine not from a recognized appraiser (such as in the case of swords - the Honnami family or in the case of soft metal, attributions from the Goto family) C). Declare the piece as a "Horyu" meaning they are not sure at the moment and the piece requires more further study before determining either way.( There is no charge if a "Horyu is issued) or in a rare case issue a verdict on the piece regardless of the gold inlayed signature, but adding the fact that this item has a type of gold signature on it but not verified by the NBTHK. ex: nishigaki -but, blah blah blah kinzogan mei ga aru. But my feeling is that IF this tsuba is a nishigaki piece, but has a Jingo Kin in mei, most likely it will not achieve Hozon, but without seeeing the piece, my opinion at this point is moot point. But the 2 schools worked very close to each other in both style and technique.

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Curran Grand Master

Curran

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Kinzogan to: Yatsuhiro ju Jingo + Kao or appraisor's mark. (Jingo: using the 五 character, sans "box" underneath)

 

Signature or attribution?

 

_______________________________________________________

 

"Mr. Mike", what's with the "Mr. Curran" ? We've dealt, or not dealt, with each other for at least ten years.

At least since the front of the room Kariganeya Hikobei rant in San Fran.

 

You're knowledge is appreciated in this matter. Yes, the kinzogan Hayashi where the mei matches the work is a classic. Rakuju seems to have been fond of the kinzogan mei.

Several others about too.

Have any kinzogan Shimizu-Jingo ones? I don't recall any off hand.

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Curran Grand Master

Curran

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The smartest Higo collector I know (only know Ito-san through proxy, and never seem to agree with Jim G opinions anymore) says the kinzogan Jingo isn't correct and isn't interested in buying it. I'm not buying diddly until I get out from under a wave of house expenses & my buying of Higo pieces is sideline, being more interested in other schools.

 

So here have a go:

 

http://page13.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r93523018

Satsuma mon.

 

This tsuba has probably had more discussion than it is worth, in my understanding of it.

Opinions welcome as to whether or not this one would paper at shinsa.

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Soshin Grand Master

Soshin

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Posted

Hi Curran,

 

After viewing the tsuba in question I would agree this tsuba don't deserve this much discussion. I am also of the opinion that I wouldn't even bother with submitting it to NBTHK shinsa IF it was in my collection because someone gave it to me as a gift.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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Soshin Grand Master

Soshin

Posted
Posted

Hi Curran,

 

I agree I wouldn't consider myself a lover of the Higo schools in my eyes a bit over rated with so many copies and fakes. As a matter of fact I have a modern Higo copy on my website for sale http://dastiles1.wix.com/reflections-#!sales/c6jy. In regards to the not submitting a tsuba for shinsa there are a few tsuba in my collection that I will not bother submitting to NBTHK shinsa and I really like them. Some examples include those tsuba that already have NBTHK or NTHK papers, tsuba that have already failed shinsa or would fail (AKA all of my Yamakichibei tsuba), went through a fire or have other major condition issues.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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Lorenzo Rising Star

Lorenzo

Posted
Posted

Curran, I believe I mentioned before on this forum, but last time I went to Japan I had an interesting discussion with a connoisseur who fooled me with a couple of higoesque tsuba which in truth was from Satsuma.

 

See the map, the provinces was confining.

post-801-1419684282199_thumb.png

post-801-14196842824604_thumb.png

 

He said the fashion was contagious and some works was copied / "made in the style of". The Jingo shape but without a Jingo tetsu, and the Satsuma mon... says it all for me. I wanted to see the enlarged pictures but I can't and I don't know why, so I have to trust you about the steel surface.

 

To me, defiantly no pass. I would say Satsuma tsuba.

 

Lorenzo

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raiden Proficient

raiden

Posted
Posted

Nishigaki school made several versions of this tsuba style, originally from the first kanshiro. However, without seeing the tsuba in hand, i have some reservations as to it possibly being later due to the apparant thick rim with the nakane style mimi zogan. And because i am an avid higo fan, i must say shame on those that do not like higo! I wonder how thick that rim was......

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