cabowen

Here is my guess: 於南信州大東都住人瀞水造之 Oite Minami Shinshu Dai Toto ju Nin Shosui tsukuru kore

While I am familiar with the causes and effects of grain size, I appreciate the time you took to explain the issue.... From what I have been told and from the limited reports I have seen, I have been led to believe that there were indeed large numbers of broken blades- from koto through the oil quenched Seki blades. It is this large number that makes me wonder....

The same as that on a signed blade- to attest to its cutting ability....

It seems there were several different iterations of the mantetsu-to, and according to the Japanese source cited above, there is no info as to what the differences, if any were between the early, mid, and late blades. It is possible that some were made with folded and forged kawagane, and perhaps others were not. I am open to the possibility that the kawagane was folded and forged, though I have not seen any evidence that proves this conclusively. The mantetsu blades I have seen did not show beyond a doubt a recognizable hada. The literature I have seen to date is not clear on this point either. The point about folding and forging is the only way to produce a blade that resists cold service fracture, in light of the fact that so many traditionally made blades failed, is also not conclusive in my mind. If anything, I will perhaps pay more attention to the next one I come across, and perhaps further information will be found. Another possibility is to section one, though if these are selling now for $3000, that prospect seems unlikely..... Interesting and enjoyable discussion. Thanks to all....

From the hada, hamon, and nakago shape I would not think Bizen....I would also not think it is that early...

While I am unsure of the species. there are indeed wild monkeys in Japan....I had them climbing on my roof on several occasions when I lived next to a mikan orchard in Odawara, Kanagawa Prefecture...

What question is that??? See above.....

Those hardness figures were high, low, and average across the blade profile I believe...That difference is what would be expected with a differentially hardened blade.....

Only if you are swing'in, czechoslovakian love machine.....

He made one sword using their steel for a commemoration, so he can't hardly be called "part of that operation"....

no.

I'm a bit confused here....The first picture shows a samurai style koshirae, the second picture shows the Kanekuni blade held next to an ivory mount that appears to still have the blade in the tsuka, meaning the Kanekuni signed blade is not from the ivory koshirae....??? I think there is little doubt this Kanekuni is the one from Seki. I have blades by Kato Kanekuni of Tokyo and this is definitely not him.....

Uhhhh, yeah......see above.....

There were two smiths signing Kanekuni during the war. One good, Kato Kanekuni of Tokyo, one from Seki. This would be the Seki smith.

notice how the yasuri me run across the inlaid saidan mei.......

Some more info from the above site: The hardness of the mantetsu blades was considerably less than shinto and shinshinto blades tested and the same as a koto Muramasa. They claim this made them less brittle. The chemical analysis is as follows: carbon manganese silicon phosphorus sulfur kawagane: .57 .05 .17 .018 .003 shingane: .23 .15 .21 .020 .008 There are some sectioned views as well that show how well the shingane stayed in the center of the blade as compared to a few old blade sections which illustrated how the shingane moved around a lot and was not centered. They make claims that this too made mantetsu blades stronger and more resistant to fracture....The pictures are not quite good enough to see if the kawagane was forged but in a few of the sections it appears that it may have been.

If you read the Japanese text, it explains that they made electrolytic iron, which is quite pure. They then took a high carbon steel rod, heated it, drilled a hole in it, inserted a rod of electrolytic iron, machine welded it and forged it to shape, then heated it in an electric furnace prior to quenching. They do not say if the kawagane was folded and forged or not. I have read accounts by smiths that claim apparent hada in these swords is not the result of folding and forging but an artifact of the steel production and processing. I would wonder why, if the steel was so pure, why they would have a need to fold and forge it? In any case, I would agree with the above post that the hada of a Mantetsu blade is not like that seen in a traditionally made blade. It has been said to be a nashiji in one source and masame in another.... Here is a link with pictures of the manufacturing process: http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_060.htm

They are known to have used western steel though it is thought they used the oroshigane process...

Swords made in the shinto era with western steel used the oroshigane process along with tamahagane and forged the billet into a blade as usual. They are indeed considered nihonto. Blades made during the war were usually made entirely of western steel, not put through oroshigane process, and usually not forged nor water quenched....not considered nihonto.

See here for details on Koa Isshin blades: http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_114.htm Electrolytic iron was placed in a steel pipe and welded together. Doubtful that the pipe was made of forged steel. The apparent hada is most likely the grain stretching from the drawing of the pipe.....

This is my opinion only: While the general shape of the kanji is close, it seems tentative and to lack the natural confidence and power of the original as posted above. Study the vertical strokes in the "kan", "ei" and "gatsu" kanji. They look weak and tentative. Look at how the pacing and spacing seems loose in general, but especially in the "awataguchi" sequence. The kanji for two, "ni", is gracefully formed from beginning of the strokes to the end, while the auction item is awkward, like two sticks laying on the ground. The kanji for month, "gatsu" is equally awkward- it is box-like and lacks the natural flair of the reference mei. Additionally, the placement of the date appears too far to the left. I could go on but I think this is sufficient.... I generally do not comment on auctions but in this case I am making an exception....

Chinese made is the odds on favorite...

In very general and ideal terms, it can be summed up rather easily: first of all, clearly recognizable as the work of a known and highly rated smith, preferably Koto, ubu, preferably signed. In polish. Koto can be unsigned and with some minor flaws, Shinto and later must be signed, ubu and with few if any flaws. One can look at the swords that have been awarded Juyo as a guide.....Also the NBTHK shinsa criteria offer some insight as well. There are certain groups that seem to be in favor, and those that are not. Takada, Seki and derivatives, country work, etc., are mostly seen as second class or worse. One quickly realizes that to be a serious collector in the Japanese tradition requires one to be seriously wealthy. Many Japanese sword enthusiasts own very few if any swords. I met many at monthly kantei meetings who told me they could not afford to own the type of swords they coveted. They also said owning such swords was a heavy responsibility that they really didn't want. Many said they could see and handle the best swords at kantei meetings without any of the responsibilities or worries of ownership. These people were very serious students who didn't need to own swords to appreciate them.... Quality seems to be preferred to quantity. I found their attitude refreshing in contrast to the "must own more" accumulator mentality I often encounter in the West where you often find collectors with 50, 100, 200 sword collections, most of which are mediocre at best.

Seems to me I have seen a WWII era gunto with a 日本刀　hot stamp a long time ago.....I wouldn't be too quick to judge and dismiss without photos....

Actually, smiths in the Yasunori (靖徳) group used a kuri-jiri. In Showa 10, when his nephew Kotani Yasunori became a smith,Yasunori the elder started making nakago in the kiji-momo shape (not funa-gata)....Of course this does not necessarily apply to blades made privately away from the Yasukuni Jinja. Fakes of WWII smiths are going to continue and the problem will most likely only get worse. These blades have long been ignored by the mainstream and now the forgers hold the upper hand. Kantei-sho from most shinsa groups should also be looked at closely as most of these groups are not up to speed on WWII era smiths and thus this is a blind spot that will be exploited....