george trotter

Yes Bruce, you are right...I also have that drawing of "govt. mandated" RS mounts (pub. 1944) and the length given is 66.6 (maybe a maximum?) and it is what prompted me to ask about blade lengths as mine is only 62.5 cm. I also posted that pic above of my RJT Kanehide because it was in identical mounts (originally announced by Tojo in 1941) with 2 buttons. Also...what you say about Tojo saying the RS should be made of tamahagane makes sense as, if you look at any RJT blade in govt. mandated steel scabbard mounts, all RJT I have seen in these mounts have two buttons....but showato do not. My OP was a question about the blade lengths in govt. mandated steel scabbard RS mounts. Except for my RJT Kanehide blade above, we have not had any feedback details on these. I thought lots of NMB members had them?

Well spotted Dave, I have looked at Ohmura sensei's site many times and that just did not register. So, I think you might have answered the question Dave...considering that the specs for a rinji mounted sword was 2 holes in a slightly longer tang, a short tang would not be considered good...maybe that's the answer? Will be interested to see if any NMB member has an old blade in rinji mounts. Thanks,

Thanks Chris, that is interesting stuff. NOW...not sure if this should be a new Rinji post...but I just thought of an additional question regarding Rinji mounts/blades...has anyone seen an old pre-Meiji blade in rinji mounts? I know I haven't. Regards,

Interesting Bruce, I also do not have a showato Rinji sword so can't comment. My Rinji sets are all gendaito...maybe it would help if I set out the lengths: Remember, that first one by Masakazu is private order Rinji mounts and blade, so I suppose you could order any length you liked? So here the 5 are with dates/lengths - 2 private made blades...3 RJT blades: 4/17 private order rinji mounts, blade, by Masakazu, Fukushima ken = 69.5 cm blade (he became a RJT about this time). 1/19 private order rinji mounts, blade by Seisui, Tokyo (made Shinano ken) = 62.1 cm blade (unknown smith - one-off?) 5/18 private order rinji mounts, blade by Munetoshi Niigata ken RJT star 64.0 cm 5/19 govt mandated steel mounts , blade by Kanehide, Seki/Gifu ken RJT star = 62.5 cm. I should say that from 1941 Kanehide worked for the Seki Sword Co and was an RJT there. Obviously this company received govt. produced "stock standard" rinji mounting parts I have seen several Kanehide star blades in govt. steel mounts (but with 2 buttons). 8/19 private order rinji mounts, blade by Kunihide, Kyoto RJT star = 66.8 cm Not sure this tells us much...be interesting if members told us date, rinji mounts type and maker/length of their swords...maybe nothing, but they seem to be shorter in rinji mounts. Regards, Edit to add...wow Chris...excellent. All within the 62-67 cm range. This seems to fit my list here except for the Masakazu at 69.5...I wonder how many long ones will turn up? I think my 69.5 blade is just because it was private order...I don't think we will see a RJT blade that long? Great stuff.

HI all, Just for fun I thought I'd ask about blade lengths in Rinji mounts. Now, I haven't really been taking notes on this, but GENERALLY speaking, I think I notice that the "government mandated" type rinji made in Seki/Nagoya/Gifu with steel scabbard, tends to have a (government regulation?) short blade c. 62 cm while the private order mounts with lacquered wood scabbard and hilt have longer blades c.64-66 cm. To illustrate this, here are two of my Rinji: 1. Privately made/mounted gendaito blade by Tsukamoto Masakazu (older bro. of Okimasa of Tokyo) with a blade length of 69.5 cm. This is the longest blade I have seen in a rinji mount. 2. Seki Sword Co. made Govt. mandated steel mounts with RJT blade of Nakata Kanehide at 62.5cm. Any comments...examples? (BTW, the long sword is much lighter than the short sword). Regards,

Hi all, Being the owner of what I think is a mumei Aizu Mutsu no Kami Kanesada blade I naturally bought the book "Aizu 11th Generation Izumi no Kami Kanesada - part 1". This is a good book and seems to cover his life/work up to his death in 1903. What I would like to know...is there a PART 2? I have looked on line etc but can't find any mention. Does any member have any info on Part 2?...is there one?... or not?...or it is coming? Thanks,

Interesting info Dave. I'm sure Bruce likes a marking challenge haha... Yes, I would get someone competent to re-build the head and then re-shape and re-slot. I say this as the thread is (I think) unique, and best to keep the screw if possible. Again, yes, the top screw is often longer than the rear screw. Have fun and look after it...now 80 years since it was made. Regards,

Hi, There has been some comment on the possibility of this smith Munetoshi making non-traditional swords (showato). I think this definitely did not happen! Your smith was Yamagami Wakakichi (Munetoshi). He was born 27 Dec. 1902. He and his brother Akihisa were both trained under the famous Kasama Shigetsugu in Tokyo and then set up a forge together back in Niigata and made quality swords for army officers. Munetoshi used a different character for 'mune' (the one seen on your sword) after he became an RJT smith for the army. A little mystery for me is that your sword has no RJT star stamp (you say) but he is using his 'new' name character...I have only ever seen it with a star. Bruce Pennington and I have been trying to "unravel' the mystery of the 'matsu' stamp etc used by the Yamagami brothers, but no luck yet...and your later used mune character and no star messes things up more. I have 2 swords by Munetoshi...one is Type 98 mounts with original mune name charcter and one is identical to yours, but with star. Both brothers returned to swordmaking after the war. If you want to check out the details of the two signatures/mountings/stamps etc on both my Munetoshi blades, you can download my little article on the NMB index page (top) called 'Trotter Collection' ...check out swords #3 and #6. You have got a good hand-made WWII sword there...just gently oil the blade...try to gently 'stabilise' the mounting wear, and enjoy forever!. Regards,

OK thanks. Yes a good point. Over the years I have done this test on a lot of tsuba that I KNOW are either forged and cast and the resulting 'ring' or 'thud' was consistent with this. Of course there may always be "variations"...which I can't explain....it is always up to the member to use or not use this test. Regards,

Duhh...Ok, thanks Bruce.

Tsuba looks OK to me Bruce but I'm not an expert. Can't say if the kanji are cut or cast. To test if tsuba is cast, hold tsuba lightly (horizontal) with your first finger and thumb on the nakago hole and 'flick' the edge of the tsuba with your other hand. If there is a fine ring it is forged, if a dull thud, it is cast...then nothing is legit. Let us know,

Oh, didn't think show you my mon...One I no longer have, 2 have been ripped off...this is the only one ...this is on a mumei shin-shinto/early gendaito in Type 98.

Hi John, As you say...so many variables, but maybe this will help. 2 old blades in Type 98 mounts (mon = 2) 9 gendai 1926-1945 blades as follows: 4 in Type 98 mounts (mon = 2,, both missing) 5 in Type Rinji mounts (mon = nil). 1 Type 98 'spare part' kabuto gane with mon. It is a strange thing but I have seen MANY Meiji-Taisho arsenal type brass hilted sabres with mon but very few 1940-1945 showato with mon...maybe the lack of mon shows that 1937-1945 officers were mostly 'called-up' for service and were not "traditional" army-alligned young men whereas back in Maiji-Taisho it was a "profession/brotherhood" one went in to and absorbed all the pride and thus needed to show one's family/clan etc to like-minded colleagues? Maybe in WWII those officers who had the money to have a blade hand-made and mounted would be more likely to add a mon. Regards,

Well there you go...so I wasn't dreaming. Thanks Bruce...you are on the ball as usual.

Nice sword David, I have one by him in the same mounts (no leather cover) with star stamp. Mine is 7 months after yours being date 18/5 (May 1943) and matsu in a circle stamp is number 1080. BTW (for our US friends) Milne Bay in PNG was one hell of a battle (25 Aug-7 Sept 1942) and the Aussies stopped the Japanese there...didn't stop the war, but drastically weakened the Japanese army in PNG. Going by the date on your sword David (17/10 = Oct 1942) your friend's dad (while being a medic at Milne Bay himself) probably got the sword some time later, at one of the later battles/surrender. Great stuff, Regards,

Bruce san, I recall seeing a Type 98 gunto (signed Kaneuji?/Masauji?) a few decades ago...with a kikusui engraved on the BLADE, about 1 inch forward of the habaki. If my ancient memory is not confused, the hamon was Mt fuji appearing through the clouds, again, just in front of the habaki. So long ago, may have been 2 different swords...but just thought you should know the kikusui has been seen on a showato? blade. Regards,

Oh, I see the top writing has been torn off...too bad, I agree the name appears to be MATSUURA YASU ?. Regards,

Looks like a Kyu Gunto tassel. Also, show us the writing at the top portion of the tag...might help us figure it out. Regards,

Yes, as you say Bruce, too early to tell. I have to say that since I put that Yamagami numbers list together, I have seen numbers on other tangs, and am now wondering if they really are smith numbers. I say this as my Tsukamoto Masakazu tang dated 17/4 (Apr. 1942) is numbered 1129 (and all parts)...so the question arises, how can Masakazu (later in 1942 a RJT smith) who only "graduated" from his brother Okimasa's sword training forge in Setagaya, Tokyo, in about mid-1941, have moved to Fukushima, set up his own forge, and produced his 1129th sword in April 1942? (that would be close to 100 swords/month). An excellent Japanese source on RJT smiths I got from Morita sama and Chris Bowen sensei says that in the 6 months 14 Aug. 1944 - 26 Feb 1945 Masakazu made 97 RJT swords (about 16/month), so the number 1129 (100/month when he was a private smith) must be "just a number"?. Maybe it is a contract number between smith and mounting shop (just a number in amongst all their other customer numbers?)...maybe it is just mounting shop number to keep all the parts from getting mixed up with other swords? I just am not sure. Again, with the Yamagami brothers, that MATSU in a circle stamp is local to Niigata (so far only them)...but is it (and the number) theirs or their local mounting shop? So, I hope I haven't confused everyone...I know you like mysteries Bruce...this is a beauty!...hope I don't read about a Japanese Sword Collector going crazy in the US in the near future!!!! Regards,

Not sure if I'm helping Bruce, but knowing you are a good detective, I have some info on the tang-mune numbers that appear on swords in those high class Rinji mounts (which I think, from those I have seen, come only from the Kyoto/Osaka/Hyogo area). I have seen (now with this Tomonari) as follows: Endo Tomonari Hyogo Star 19/7 mune = 24 Takashima Kunihide Kyoto Star 19/8 mune = 90 (papered NBTHK 1991 Hozon) Takashima Kunihide Kyoto Star 19/8 mune = 98 (mine - photo attached) Takashima Kunihide Kyoto Star 19/8 mune = 99 These are from research on Kunihide...there are others I didn't think to record...one named to Osaka. Exactly where the mounting shop/chain of shops who used these mounts and marked the mune was located...well...wish I knew. Regards

Well, looks like we can expect to find just about every variation possible in the RS group (probably lots more variations we haven't seen yet). Maybe best to just take them as they come and not try to "invent" an explanation for these variations. War-time, lots of pressure, supply problems etc, etc. Just make something that works...hyaku, hyaku... Thanks guys,

Thanks Dave. Yes we know they are a lot 'scarcer' than the Type 98, and for the reasons you give. Just wondering about how scarce are the gilt/brass menuki among these rinji. I know that the earliest Rinji mounted sword known (Yamagami Akihisa gendai dated 12/1941 numbered 566 in brown lacquered Rinji) has black iron menuki - so that seems to mean the black ones were there from day one, so these gilt ones must be "private customer's mounting choice"?. I am also supposing they'd only appear on the private order mounts for private order gendai and RJT blades...wouldn't expect to see them on the 'common' Seki made mounts for Rinji showato blades? and Bruce, yes, 1 inch longer heh-heh...do I hold the record? Wonder if there are longer blades in Rinji out there? Regards,

On the subject of this private order Tsukamoto Masakazu blade above. I have a couple of questions members might be able to help with...Just to add to the Rinji Seishiki knowledge base. Have a look at pics. 1. the blade is 69.5 cm.(27 3/8 in)...have other menbers seen this length blade in Rinji mounts ? 2. notice that the menuki are gilt/brass pattern instead of the usual 'Rinji pattern' black iron menuki...have members seen these as well?...maybe just a private order "customer choice" thing? Be interested to know just how "varied" the Rinji sytem was. Regards, (Edit) well there you go...I should have looked at post #55 on this thread and I would have seen the gilt/brass menuki on a Rinji...duuhh! Well, still interested in how common they are and answers on long blades.

Quoted this post by mistake...tried to cancel my reply...but can't see any way of doing that on this new format...can anyone tell me how to cancel for when I do this again? Thanks.

You'll have to find out what branch/family the 3 stripes on the centre leaf signifies. Have fun...