Shamsy

That explains it! When I look at it any less than full zoom it looks like a 3, then as soon as you said 8 it was suddenly so obvious I thought as a 300 it would have the horse shoe, but they extend only up to around 700.

@Stegel Given that the sword is in the hundreds range (371), should it not have a horse shoe drag? Because the early swords I remember seeing up to and past 600 all have horse shoe shaped drags. Yet this drag appears to be the more common half oval type evident in later models, up until and past 6,000? I can't see very well because of the low resolution, but it definitely looks like a horizontal line across the saya. It could be the half circle too... I really can't tell but it definitely doesn't look like the horse shoe. So which drags do you attribute to what serial ranges, because if there was a drag style inbetween the first 100 to 700, I am unaware of it and am keen to see what number ranges contain each of the four styles. I have been very lax the last couple of years in keeping records of coppers I've seen, so I am sure your own records would be much more complete.

Just one extra observation to add and a question to ask. There are a few variations to the saya drag for coppers. As far as I am aware, the earliest swords should have a horse shoe shaped drag, while this looks like the later saya drag, squared off. Is the saya matching? Can someone please post a higher resolution photo of the drag?

Sword looks fine to me. The tsuba shouldn't be that shiny though, agree with Bruce. They left the factory with a protective brown finish. This looks polished. Not the best example I've seen. Doesn't have the original leather sarute, blade looks a bit worn, dented saya... so I sort of guess I see why some people may be sceptical about the paint. I've seen a few very clean gunto with well worn parts that do not match the new finish of the paint. Coppers were refurbished by arsenals though, sometimes a couple of times, so paint could be 'original' or could be a refurbished one or could have been repainted post war. I have one with three distinct greens on it in layers. Don't know with this one, but a very nice example. I find the lower the copper numbers the better condition. I suspect that a great deal of the earliest coppers had leather combat covers, so pristine or close to paint is certainly believable. I mean, I don't really have more to say. Looks like a great example, I'd buy it, but not at that price for me. The seller is great too. Oh edit to add I once had a pattern 5 that was 'mint'. Still coated in grease on blade, mint paint, looked unissued. Not a mark on it, no chips, completely as new. So they do absolutely exist.

Sword 1: (These pictures are more for the military buffs) Note the 'Roman numerals' II on the habaki, seppa, fuchi and tsuba@Bruce Pennington

Hi all, I'm currently going through some Japanese swords from a military museum to see what I can help them with. If you have a look in the General Nihonto forum, I'm going to post them all there. Just a quick post to let you all know, as I'm sure some of you are as interested as I am. I'm hoping to get a look at a generals sword too...

Sword 1

Sword 1: Kai-gunto It has at some stage been attacked with a sander and is overall in fairly poor condition. No stamps or mei evident Three mekugi-ana Suriage Only the faintest hamon left, maybe midare Clasped hand sarute Polished same saya Seppa all have scratched markings. Along with the habaki the most evident is two lines Gentle oroshi Nagasa 66cm Sori (hard to measure but shallow) Kasane 0.8cm Kissaki 3.5cm Mihaba 6.1cm My best bet is a tachi that was cut down and remounted.

Hello all, I have been given the opportunity to assist a military museum with the identification of their Japanese swords. I will add a number of swords with pictures and basic measurements. Any additional information would be greatly appreciated and will be passed on to the curator. Swords will be labelled for easy reference. I'll tidy this thread when I have time.

Cheap wall-hangers.

Probably a better question for the General Nihonto discussion thread, as opposed to the militaria section. And I have no idea I'm afraid. An inch or two I'd assume?

No worries at all, John. I can't tell if this is the same book being recommended, Bruce. Anyway, here is a picture.

You'll want to try and get a copy of the book The Yasukuni Swords: Rare Weapons of Japan 1933-1945. Very good book with a lot of documentation and the sort of factual information you'd be after, Bruce. Here is a picture of my lovely Yasumitsu, though as you can tell, it has suffered a bit before it came to me. I've attached some before and after photos. The varnish came off pretty easily, but there was a great deal of scrubbing with soft brushes, rags and oil to get the nakago to the current state. Sadly, unless more rust could be safely removed, some of the characters remain obscure. To quote some comments "it's on the short side with a nagasa of 61cm and full length of 78cm, so it's almost like a kodachi with it's dimensions... the hamon... looks nice, bright, even, some ko-ashi in there as well." A very fine sword, thin and light. I have most of the original military koshirae too, though it is very weathered.

I sold you a mint tassle, Bruce. It still had the tiny stitch of thread holding it together.

I somewhat expect that the amount of new information, the growing scarcity, the inflation of anything that is a store of wealth, the new trend for dedicated 95 collectors have all eaten up supply and increased prices. I don't see them ever going down again. They are the easiest military Japanese swords to collect. From a price point, from a knowledge point and from the fact that you can complete a set within a couple of hard years of looking. That is all why I collect them, amongst other reasons.

Saya colour is great, there are a huge range of shade of brown and green. The patina is what tells you if it is a repaint. On a side note, I have a copper that has three distinct layers of greens in the little paint that remains. I assume arsenal refurbishment is always a possibility. As to the habaki, that happens. I have a couple of swords that are similarly a less than ideal fit. Not a lot to be done I'm afraid.

Correct, Kiipu. There were swords made in China during WW2 for collaboration forces. There is a very good version that I've seen with a distinct style or pattern, a decent blade and well made koshirae. It has been discussed on this forum many times over the years and I used to have one myself with an inscription to a captain and from (what I think was) the 'Ministry of defence, China'. I'd find the photo, but honestly, I'd just be doing what I have already done dozens of times when this discussion pops up. Now, to this sword. This is the other, far cruder version that was kicking around in some number at a similar time. While I am certain of the veracity of the aforementioned sword being a Chinese made collaboration sword, the example in this thread I have little information about, other than they have been around a long time, were near identical in make between swords and were lumped with the Chinese wartime swords years ago in a few threads of dusty forums.

No new comments to add to Cliff's sword. It looks as if a faintly struck number was either too faint to see, too close to the edge and/or obliterated with sanding or rust removal.

@Kiipu bit late to the party but I am sure we had a thread with a lot of information about swords that were supposedly made by a Chinese arsenal, which from memory were for collaboration forces. Those swords, however, had a distinct style that could be called a 'pattern'. This sword does not fit that particular style of koshirae.

I was referring to this thread specifically, which may be of interest to you, Paul: I find the idea plausible, Paul. I'm not sure why they would do it though (since the swords already had numbers) and seeing that this is the only example, if it was a practice they employed even temporarily, I would expect to see a handful of these pop up by now. Intriguing, but I am remembering how much money I wasted chasing stories over facts and restraining myself from trying to buy the sword for my own collection.

Genuine sword, but the additional habaki and saya numbers... great story, which without a reference to back it up, a story is worth nothing. Not something I would like to try and explain were I hoping to sell the sword. With a primary source to confirm the stamping of swords by the occupation forces, it would increase value. As it is, it greatly detracts. Afraid I can't recall ever hearing of this or seeing another 95 like this. There are some 98s with numerical habaki stamps, but I don't recall them having corresponding saya numbers. So even were you to try and tenuously create a link there, it doesn't add up I'm afraid. Good luck on your search to verify the occupation force practice. Please do keep us up to date if you do find something as every little bit of extra information is invaluable to researchers and collectors.

That just looks like the second part of the knot in shadow, Bruce. The ito patterns on swords can change between patterns and manufacturers.

Just too add one comment more. I think a Type 95 blade in officer mounts would be infinity more likely to be genuine than an officers blade in 95 mounts. Blades were obviously in shortage, but I've not seen anything to suggest koshirae were ever hard to obtain. I can easily imagine an officer remount a 95 blade they purchased and owned, but absolutely don't believe an NCO would do the same for their issued sword. Always an exception though.

Oh, should have commented. It 100% is and it is correct for the serial number range of the Pattern 1. You can clearly see the curved 'shoe' shaped brass plug of the saya in the photo, under the added officers cap.

Honestly, I really don't know with this one. I don't have 109 listed in my Pattern 1 database, though I have about 20 swords to add when I have time and energy to update. Stegel may have different records to me. The stamps look correct, as does the saya. If there was ever a 'real' example of a private purchase sword that was modified to look like an officer sword, I would say this is a good candidate. Could it also be a project by someone with parts or a fabrication of a 'rare' sword? absolutely. That's about all I have to say. If someone wants to buy this, then please share it with the forum when you get a hands-on look.