Jean

Hi Martin, I'll try to see what I can find in the Nihonto Zuikan tonight. I am very surprised by the 2 Oshigata of the second Yoshisuke mei, they are so different ..... I am not sure that your tanto meï fits either oshigata .....

Unfortunately, Darcy, it will have to wait taking into account that this summer we did not have anything else but rain Worst summer for 25 years

I shall say that when I see my gokkaden katanas there is a silky velvet look to the hada

Hi Paul, In fact according to where swords were forged during koto times, it seems there was some difference in the steel (colour) but as any skilfull polisher can do anything, I am unable to make distinction in steel colour in *koto times. It seems that during shinto times it became very homogeneous throughout Japon. Now, I think that to be able to see the difference in steel colour, we should see several swords from different provinces polished by the same polisher with the same treatment. I am not sure to see the difference, it seems that koto swords are less shiny than shinto ones.

I am too lazy to open a new Topic, but what is the difference between itame nagareru (running itame) and masame? if anyone has pictures. It seems depending on people that either word are used to describe the same thing.

It is a very interesting sword. I am wondering if NTHK attribution has not been based only on the hamon. I agree with Darcy, the sword looks verymuch like a sue Bizen Katate uchi, the nakago has deep rust and deep pits and yasurime are almost totally faded. Now I do not have any experience with Shinshinto smiths but I cannot remember having seen this kind of nakago associated with katate uchi when they were trying to revive a tradition. From what I have seen they tried to revive great masters from end of Kamakura/Nambokucho but I have never seen them imitating their Nakago or this sword has a strong flavour of sue Bizen, not an era of study for shinshinto masters. Considering the Horimono, I cannot see if it is worn out or not by polishing. This kind of Horimono was quite frequent during Oei/Eikyo. What is a puzzle for me : why masame near/in the hamon, it would rather point to Mino (Naoe Shizu). But the hamon as shown seems to be crablike (sue Bizen) To compare, here is a short inventory sheet of my katateuchi Tadamitsu (around Eisho): Nagasa : 62,7 cm Sori : 2,1cm Hamachi : width : 2,9 cm - kasane : 0.73cm Yokote : width : 1,84 cm length : 3cm (Chu, considering the nagasa) In short, It damned looks as a Katate Uchi sue Bizen. 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 As stated by Darcy, yasurime are very important for two reasons, its quality give you a good indication on the smith value (on ubu nakago) and can be also (in case of mumei ubu nakago sword attributed to a smith) a confirmation kantei to the school

Darcy, my friend, oustanding material as usual. I hope Brian shall keep it as he kept your precedent mei analysis. I have spent sometimes last night on your Bizen book. I was studying sori and suguta of the blades pictured. It gives a lot of information, not only on the Bizen blades but on sori and suguta. For NMB members who have this book, study it carefully in line with the original Darcy's post. I have reached the conclusion that nothing can be generalized as well in the suguta as in the sori. So I reconsider my answer on post Kanbun sword but even if it can fit an early Kamakura blade, I won't give this answer withou having other elements for the following reasons : we have no data on the hamon, jihada .... and, though it exists, you had one, there is only one mekugi ana. In your Bizen book, you featured only one suriage blade with one mekugi ana, all the others have at least 2 mekugi ana. What are the chances to have a suriage early Kamakura tachi with one mekugi ana? I do not know but it exists. So it's difficult to rule it out. In brief, I do not know the era ...

Brian I had somme difficulties to upload the site yesterday afternoon but in the evening it was OK

Peter, concerning sori of Shinto post Kanbun swords, have a look at this one : http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/07272.html The sori is 1,9 cm for a 69,3 cm nagasa

In fact, you are right about my process, I have proceeded by elimination. Considering the tapering a post kanbun sword has roughly 0,8/0,9 cm tapering between the Motohaba and the Sakihaba. The blade being slighltly shortened (machi Okuri?) it could have fitted. As I have mentioned already I had totally ruled out late kamakura/nambokucho sword because all the swords I have seen from this area are rather stout. Putting aside a possible Utsushi blade, I have an Eisho uchigatana with this measurement : Nagasa : 62,7 cm Sori : 2,1cm Hamachi : largeur : 2,9 cm Yokote : largeur) : 1,84 cm But I have ruled out thsi period because of the Nakago pattern. From the measurement given by Darcy, the only other option available could have been Late Heian/early Kamakura. I have eliminated this solution because I have not seen such blades and I thought the shortening was affecting the sori which was more like Koshi. But above all I have eliminate this possibility because it would have been really an incredible piece of luck to encounter such a blade in such state of conservation and healthy. Please note that the picture is giving a very wrong idea of the blade which looks like much more stout, that is why Darcy has given the inventory sheet otherwise no discussion should have been possible. About reasonning on Generalities about Nihonto, without any other information at end on thousands of exception (That's what Nihonto is all about) we have to manage with what we have. Question remains opened on the Era

Just a question : I thought that the shinogi should be endingin the angle formed by the V nakagojiri. Here it seems on the pictures that the nakago jiri angle is on the left of the shinogi

Here is another one on Aoi Art by the 2nd Tadahiro with same kind of hamon http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/ ... 7304-2.jpg

Interesting, unfortunately, I would have liked to have the Hiro kanji instead of the Yoshi because on the oshigata provided by my friend there are suspicious atari. My main problem is that I have requested him to provide me with pictures of the mei but I am sure that the info provided as so far is enough for him ans that he will not bother taking pictures Nevertheless the vertical stroke at the left of the kanji "Fuji" (in the oshigata provided) seems very short

Yes Darcy, I did not want to stress that we are facing the first kantei step which is determine the era of the blade. Now why Kamakura, why Nambokucho, why post Kanbun? My answer is based on the overall vision of the blade and the feeling I have. I have hesitated between two answers. The first I have given is based on gut feeling. The second I could have given is sue koto - my main reason to give this answer of +/- 1700 is based on two things : the Nakago has only one mekugi ana, seems really very slightly shortened and has a shinto look. Furthermore, taking Darcy inventory sheet - (BTW that is why I insist on getting it before playing the kantei man act) you have the sori : 1,8 cm. It seems to be torii. It means that the sword has only be slightly shortened because it is too big to belong to an O suriage blade (remember there is only one mekugi ana). The sori does not match a Kamakura/Nambokucho O suriage blade, further for NMB members who have held Kamakura/Nambokucho blade please refer to the others measures given by Darcy. We are facing (despite the picture) a very slender blade with a ko kissaki (go to Aoi Art/ katana and see the measurement given (sakihaba/motohaba)) - Ko kissaki :2,6 cm !!!! for a blade of 68,5 cmm long that is really small. I have an Uchigatana (sue bizen) with 62,7 nagasa and a 3 cm kissaki and it looks very small ... I am also ruling out the kamakura/nambokucho period for the fumbari, O suriage Nambokucho/Kamakura swords have little fumbari - remember I consider we are facing a slightly shortened blade - Momoyama to Kanbun sori does not match, so it could be after, but before shinshinto ====> circa 1700 or a bit later. Other Hypothesis : sue Koto blade, around Entoku or after Tenmon when blades length starts to increase (from 62/66 cm it goes to the 70 cm), the nakago seems to have a deep black rust (please refer to Tokugawa Art/Katana) but the Nakago should have less tapering (more stout) Everything in this post comes, at near 3 o'clock in the morning, from a poor frog which has been banned from his bed because of snorring All this is written under the label "IMHO", I am gone try to sneak back between the sheets - so long mates

Darcy, you have only read partially my post, you have forgotten the following : Close picture of : - The Kissaki - Monouchi - Nakago - upper view from mune machi :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Unfortunately, the only picture we have is very low resolution (rather blurred) The Nakago seems only slightly shortened, the suguta and sori made me think of a Shinto +/- 1700 AD blade (post kanbun). Let's see what other NMB members think.

And the hamon, I shoot faster than my shadow :lol:

Hi, Two other JPG files my friend just sends me : A scan of the Nakago in .jpg A picture of the hamon

Here is a scan of a Tadahiro mei which was sent to me by a friend - it is a wak which has to be polished so the hada is not visible, the hamon is not suguha but rather notare. I told him to send me a scan of the nakago and that I'll post it on NMB to have a feed back. Unfortunately, the file is ".tif" and I do not know if you'll be able to open it

As stated by NMB members, it looks like an old blades. As usual, once again, as cantankorous frog, I am complaining about the lack of : - Inventory sheet - Close pictures of : - the Kissaki - The monouchi - the Nakago including Ha/Mune machi - upper view of the mune machi It will help NMB specialists (I am not including myself) to give more valueable opinions. Now, I had with Darcy a few days ago (off board) a very interesting discussion about yasurime and nakago jiri. I shall add it was a one way discussion, Darcy, as usual, providing all the answers to my question. From Tanobe sensei, Nakago kiri jiri appears on O suriage blades during shinto period. This blade could be a koto O suriage blade which could be confirmed if yasurime are kiri.

John, Cooking requires some effort (even if it is rotating the .pdf file) :lol:

Happy birthday to all of you my friends around the world. A special thought to Rich S., a standing ovation to Rich T., Brian, Stephen and all the pillar members (Koichi, Guido .....) Tonight I shall celebrate this birthday with a special dinner : Foie Gras and Sauternes Lobster with scalopped foie gras, sauce porto and White Burgundy (Meursault) Cheese Home made Chocolate cake with Mas Amiel. Exceptionnally, for this birthday, I join the Recette of the Lobster with foie gras (special Milt) langouste au foie.pdf

Tu quoque mi fili

Hi Milt, No, in industry, Alcatel-Lucent

Hi Dean, Habaki is blocked on both Ha/Mune machi, if one is missing it could get the owner into trouble when he gets into action. All blades have been forged with H/M machi. The absence of H machi could indicate as noticed by Mark a greatly shortened Wak/Katana.

Hi Darcy, It seems a second skin to me as my primary job is International Financing