paulb

Shan A very short answer which I have always understood to be true. a wooden Habaki on a shirasaya was something of a fashion in Japan. I have seen several where the habaki was a part of the tsuka rather than seperate. As far as I know this was simply a function of where and when it was made and had nothing to do with the quality of the blade it protected. regards Paul

Dear All, I am sure that I have seen sonmewhere either in a reference book or on a website a list of definitions of different catagories of showa-to. ie. hand made, hand finished, machine made etc. I have trawled my own limited reference books on modern swords but cant find it. Can anyone point me in the right direction pleae? thanks in advance Paul b

Shan, At risk of becoming controversial which I have neither the time, interest or energy to do I think you need to remind yourself of what the papering system is aimed to do. First and foremost it is to attempt to confirm a) the authentcity of something b) whether it is worthy of preservation The point sytem I think reflects the original quality the current condition and the rarity of the object. It is not intended to be a commercial ready reckoner. i.e. my 72 point sword is worth more than your 69 point sword. It purely relates to what they are seeing. To confirm this just look at the price ranges between Juyo anf Tokubetsu Hozon. There are many swotrds with TH which command higher prices than Juyo. It depends who made it how highly they are rated and condition. You mention about judges not explaining what they mean by den. this is because a) they follow a standard form when papering which enables them to confirm their judgement the length and date of appraisal. The NTHK go one stage further in that if a sword fails they tell you what they think it is. They have neither the room or time to write a detailed appraisal. However if you require one I imagine some judges would give one for a price. within a shinsa submission you are getting an opinion as to what something might be. Thats what you pay for. You are not paying for nor should you expect a complete commercial evaluation and explanation. Debates about your sword with its carbon pocket vs another one with the same no. of points are meaningless. It is worth what the market will pay for it and any other conjecture is frankly wasting effort and time.

The concern had nothing to do with "getting a good deal" it was more aimed at stopping people commenting on sales when the seller had no opportuinity to respond. Ultimately something is worth what someone will pay for it, good or bad. I have no interest in protecting rogue traders, or for that matter keeping good deals for myself and I think you do a great diservice to members here by suggesting that is their (or my) motivation.

Perhaps one of the administrators could comment but wasnt it an early rule of the board that members should not comment on ebay sales while live? rgeards paulb

Hi Mariusz I am working from memory having not relooked at the pics posted but I think you may be worrying unnecessarily. From what I remember of the blade it had reasonable shape and good hada. There could be many explanations for the anomoly in the shape of the nakago without going to the extreme of a welding job. I also doubt anyone would try and artificially age a Hizen blade. Hizen swords have alays been highly regarded so there would be little commercial value in disfiguring the nakago to make it look like a koto piece. Form what I saw of the sword I think for $1500 you did ok and you should continue to enjoy the blade. regards Paul

Thanks Franco, I may just be misreading the writing on the form so it could well be the man you describe.

Dear All, looking for some information on Inshi Kanesaki, a shin-shinto smith working around 1850, I think in Kaga area. So far all I can find is a snetence in the shin-shinto volume of Nihonto Koza. Any additional information gratefully received. Thanks Paul

Hi Dean I think the nearest group to you is the Northern Token which meets in Manchester wvery other month. Your sword has a showa stamp on it. Depending which books you read and whose opinion you believe the generally held view is/was that swords with this stamp on are factory made, possibly hand finished but not regarded in Japan as traditionally made swords. There seems to have been some movement in this recently but I think that is still the general belief. The characters on your blade are typical of a showa made sword. There are many kanemichis, the first and most famous known as O-michi or Daido was the father of Kinmichi who founded the Mishina School in the Edo period. Other Kanemichis crop up throughout the Edo period. I should try and get a copy of John Sloughs book on modern swords you may find this mei in that. hope this helps Paulb

Simon, your question about a suriage blade is unanswerable. There are many, many suriage blades in existance. In fact it is more unusual to find an ubu koto blade than one that has been altered. value has more to do with quality, maker and history than whether it has been shortened. As a general rule: 1. suriage is less valuable than an ubu blade by the same smith if all other factors relating to quality are equal. 2. Suriage koto blades are more acceptable than shortened shinto work. 3. As a general rule other than under exceptional circumstances shinto or shinshinto blades that have been shortened will not obtain above Tokubetsu Hozon papers. regarding this blade from the little I have seen I dont think $700 is an over the top price at all. I agree that it is hard to find a gunto at that sort of price. ultimately any sword is worth what someone will pay for it. regards Paul

Sorry Barry I did not mean to be obtuse or unclear. The group visiting the UK was the one operating under the current Mr. Yoshikawa (the son) regards Paul

Hi Barry, it is the original NTHK under mr. Yoshikawa.

do yet get a bonus for the number of questions in one email?? I will try and answer from what I have seen so far. 1. Judges usually spend between 5 and 10 minutes on a blade there are 3 or 4 of them and that equates to about 20 mins of examination. 2. Yes they have and do use books. 3. No they dont always agree with each other and thats why some blades take longer to look at. 4. the age and school of a blade are determined by shape, hada and hamon the mei is then examined and should confirm what the blade is telling them. therefore if the workstyle is of the shodai but the mei in the style of a later generation it is wrong. we had at least one example yesterday of a Hizen balde which everyone agreed was a later generation Tadayoshi and was signed hizen (no) Kuni Tadayoshi. However the mei did not match any of the later styles and it was concluded that it was added later not by the smith who made it. This is not an attribution but an attempt to add value by putting a name on the blade. result was that it was failed. but the explaination given on the pink paper For a sword to pass the workmanship and the style of mei must match up and they have many published examples to compare against. As said before one of the real learning pluses was that when someone queried the result given (happenned on about 7 out of 210 swords seen) the judges spent time explaining and showing illustrated examples that helped them reach their conclusions. interestingly most of the debate seemed to be around later gendaito/showa-to blades rather than earlier work but that may be just the relative quantity of these blades on show. hope this helps answer some of your questions regards Paulb

Roland, I have never dealt with Lanes Armoury personally, infact I may be even further away from them than you are, them being on the south coast and me in the wild north. However they always have a lot of swords with what look to be relatively high prices. While they may not be specialists in Nihonto I am pretty sure they know enough to tell if a sword is good/valuable. I have yet to see a bargain appear on their site. I am gettnig a little paranoid now but the patination on the nakago looks more due to abuse than age, whether an attempt to age it or just negelct. but I dont think it is as old as you do. regards Paul

Hi Jean, By far the most common score last weekend was 70 points. there were some at 60 and some a little above. My feel is that if a blade is clean with attributes visible and it is possible to make a good attribution 70 is what you can expect. Anything above that suggests it is above the norm. regarding higher attribution I would suspect they would not make an 80 point plus at an overseas shinsa, althought 1 got close the last time (that is my opinion only) it is a little like the NBTHK not passing a sword as Juyo at their normally monthly panel, it needs to be submitted to a Juyo panel and for the judges to spend more time on it. If the judges saw something with greater potential I thnk they would discuss the best way to achieve this with the owner. As I said they were extremely helpful in explaining what they were doing and how they reached their conclusions. regards Paul

Shan, I think there is a typo in post it should read 70 points not 90. at 90 points your wak would be close to Juyo status and sorry to say that isnt the case. hope my mail to you didnt mislead you. Also you are right there is an Echizen Kanetsune but the signature on your blade is not his, therefore gimei. regards Paul

Hi Jean, The honest answer is I dont know. Last time there was one sword that they said if it was repolished would achieve 80 points plus, but that is as close as I have seen. The highest I know of from the earlier event was 76. Perhaps the experience in the USa may be different. regards Paul

Hope it is ok to start this as a new thread but I didnt want to interupt the earlier one with a general comment on the event. As one of the helpers at this years event my views may be a little biased but I thought I would give members an overall impression of the two day event. The first and most striking thing was the very friendly and enjoyable atmosphere at the event. Apart from the natural nervousness, and pacing up and down like expectant fathers the vast majority of attendees seemed to be enjoying their waiting time talking to old and new friends and keeping the caffine levels up from the ample supplies of free coffee. I think the NTHK and Graham Curtis in particular did a first rate job in selecting the venue, preparing documnetation and allocating tasks. As a result the event ran smoothly more or less on time (even ahead of schedule at some points) and there were no significant problems. What was also extremely benficial was the willingness of the Judges to discuss and explain their attributions to anyone who did not understand. While some may still not have agreed at the end of the explanation thay at least understood why the judges came to the view they did With regard to the swords, quality etc I have listed the main points below. I did not see everything come back but I did see every blade that went in and most that were returned. However I may have missed a couple of things. 1. Generally the pass rate and quality was much the same as last time. The highest point score was I think 75 for kozori tachi. 2. There were very few main Koto tradition swords. other than the Kozori above I am not aware of any koto Bizen, Yamato or Yamashiro blades going through. 3. Swords were generally newer than we might have hoped with many being dated to 17th/18th century and to the more utillitarian schools. But some of these were very good looking pieces. 4. One dissappointment was the proportion of baldes that at some time in their lives had been trated with acid. Although this did not fail them I am sure it kept their point values down. Overall I think the event was first rate, (although my back after the drive home has other views). I do not belive it could have been better orgainsed or the NTHK team from Japan more helpful and accomodating. Most notable of all was that collectors and students of Japanese swords are really decent people that it is good to spend time with. I hope all those that submitted swords got at least some of the results they were looking for. Best Regards Paulb

Hi Steve, There are a lot of Kiyomitsu working in the late koto period, at their best they were excellent but there were a lot of relatively ordinary work as well. It was a little like the Sukesadas but not quite so prolific. Mainline Hizen blades have always been popular and soughtr after both in Japan and the West. Teir reputation has always been high. Omi Daijo was in the top 3 or 4 Hizen Smiths (depending whose opinion you prefer) and he excelled at Suguha hamon. Over the years I have had several of his works in my collection (Still got one) and his work is of a very high standard. good luck to your friend with whatever he decides todo with his blade

Steve, Sorry to be picky but I assume you mean Omi Daijo Tadahiro who was the second generation of the mainline Hizen Tadayoshi line. Value is incredibly difficult, particularly if the sword is beyond polishing. A good Omi Daijo Wakazashi in good condition and polish and papered range from £4000 to around £7000. He lived a long time (80years) so his work is not uncommon and there are a huge number of forgeries as well. A blade out of polish and beyond polish, without papers is generally not an attractive buy. Ultimately your friend could get what someone is prepared to pay for an example of a mei. Hizen swords in top condition are sought after and expenisive. Regretably because of the way they are made all to often they become tired after relatively few polishes (thinness of the jigane allows core steel to show through). As soon as that happens the value plummets. sorry to sound a not too optimistic note. regards Paul

I agree very much with Rich that a paper is just another opinion, albeit a very learned one and there are certainly many stories of swords being submitted to different groups or even the same group at different times and coming back with different attributions. However coming back to your first point it sort of implies that the attribution is based purely on the mei. In fact the mei is (from what I have seen at the UK shinsas) the last thing looked at. As has been said often here before, the mei should confirm the opinion made based on the workmanship. Having said that I have seen swords made by top rated smiths (a recent Rai Kunitoshi springs to mind) where the workmanship was extremely pedestrian, so I have no doubt they produced "monday morning" work like the rest of us mortals. To confirm points made before: 1. You should buy the sword not the paper. 2. The main benefit of papers from one of the main shinsa groups is that it confirms a level of condition when buying a blade unseen over distance. 3. When buying a famous name there is no doubt I would be more confident in parting with cash for a blade that had been passed by an expert shinsa panel than not. We can go on at infinitem about how valuable papers are or are not and it is up to the indvidual how much credence he/she places on them. There is no doubt however that having papers is of commercial benefit if nothing else.

I have to say your Togishi sounds incredibly arrogant! I regard myself as a true collector but as the trend is increasingly towards buying via the internet and unseen at least papers (from a reliable source) offer some reassurance I am always troubled by comments refernig to "The true...." as it falls in to the Emperors news clothes approach. A member of the dumb masses Paul

I think the sword has potential but doubt it is Koto. If it was one of the more famous (and expensive) Sukehiro it would be an early Shinto blade and he/they worked in Osaka. As John says better pictures of the blade would be agreat help However based on what can be seen so far it loks to be a promising piece. regards Paul

Hi Steve, Unless Colin has recently returned to the UK from the USA I am not sure whether he can help or not. However three main names in the UK are: Tony Norman based in London John Bolton based in the North West and Les Stewart based in Scotland. regards Paul

Let me be amongst the first to wish you the best of luck. If you are intending to produce a news letter to introduce new pieces please add me to your mailing list. Once again good luck Regards Paulb