paulb

Martin, a friend of mine bought a sword last month from AOI-Art and asked them to submit to the NBTHK. They were happy to do this but said owing to the backlog of submissions he would not get the sword (or result) until October. They were quoting approx 6 months from submission. Interested if this has been others experience. regards Paul

Peter, I think trying to offer more information on this will be very difficult. The fact that the nakago has been "cleaned" certainly doesnt help. Also the fact you can see neither hada nor hamon makes appraisal (at least for me) virtually impossible. Based on what you have said and the pictures: 1. The shape looks pretty good and to me suggests mid 1500s to early 1600s. 2. The nakago if it is ubu looks fairly short suggesting Bizen but I am a little worried by the shape of the butt. 3. The flat mune is a concern. If it is Maru mune it should be rounded not flat. I cant remember seeing a sword with a flat mune before. Either way, low maru mune or flat would lead me to some of the mass-produced blades coming out of Osafune or seki in the late 15th to mid 16th century. These were made using traditional materials by groups of smiths SUkesada in Bizen Kanesada and Kanemoto in Seki and were regarded as functional swords rather than art blades. Its an intereting piece and a great present to have received. If you have the opportunity take it to a show or club so people can see it "in hand" I am sure they can give you a better opinion. regards Paul

Excuse me for being lazy but I am away from my references and mei on fittings isnt my thing. could someone give me some help on the mei below please? thanks and regards Paul

Thank you Moriyama-san and all for your input, it is much appreciated.

All, I am sorry I am sure the answer is staring me in the face but I cant work out the mei on this nakago. Can someone help please? thanks in advance Paul

Sorry but with so little visible in the body of the blade making any assessment is extremely difficult (at least to me). The nakago looks old. please remember that the Sukesada group of smiths were extremely active from the the mid Nabokucho all through the remainder of the koto period and then more latterly in the shinto and shin-shinto. If I had to guess, and it would be a guess I would suggesst late Koto i.e 1450-1550. This is in part because I think the Sukesadas were most active during this time. The shape also appears more typically from that period. The blade does not look as early as 1350s. However Bizen is not really my area so I could be well off base. I would be interested in the opinions of the Bizen enthusiasts too.

Hi Henry, that is a very proffessionally presented piece of work. Did you do the oshigata as well?

Totally agree with Grey, It is well worth spending a few hundred dollars on basic reference books to start with. It will save you a fortune in bad buys later on. Interested in others suggestions but if I were startnig a reference library now my first books would be: John Yumoto The Samurai sword Japanese swords by Sato The craft of the Japanese sword by L Kapp and The Connoisseurs book of Japanese swords by Nagayama. After that I would progress on to the volumes of Nihonto Koza. I am sure others will have their own favorites

Hi Curran, The reference was in the new generation of Japanese swordsmiths by Tamio Tsuchiko which contains an interview with Osaki Yasumune who was the last living Yasukuni smith. I believe he died in 1997.

I like the analogy Curran, I'd like to use it sometime when trying to explain the differences. Basically oil tempering is a more gentle process which is less likely to damage but is unable to produce the dramatic crystal structures and actvity that can be achieved through water quenching. Interestingly I was reading an interview with the last surviving Yasukuni smith regarding the story of some years ago that Yasukuni smiths tempered in oil. He said this was definately not the case. However they did reheat blades after water quenching and cool them in oil. obviously this was at much lower temperatures so as not to destroy the crystal structure achieved with the original temper, but it releaved some of the stresses inherent in the water quenched blade.

no Peter when it is shipped they changed to "shipped" I think they quote up to 10 working days prior to shipping. Mine took about 7 and two in the post

I recently had a conversation on this subject with a colleague. Over recent years (and maybe even earlier) retempering has been regarded in a very negative light. Not only does it have a detremental effect on the blade (courseness in the hada, dullness and lack of activity in the hamon etc) but also it means that an essential part of the swords construction and appearance is no longer by the hand of the original smith. Its a bit like owning a Rembrant that is 50% the work of a restorer. However wasnt one of Yasutsugus main tasks re-tempering blades for tokugawa Ieyasu? You never see these works being condemned as sahei (come to think of it you dont see thse works identified as re-tempered) So like everything else I wonder if the issue here is quality. A good smith skilled at re-tempering and able to copy the work of the original smith could perhaps produce a work that still had value. If you consider the prevelance of wood construction in buildings throughout Japanese history, fire was an almost continuous hazard. I suspect that there are very many swords which have been damaged in fires and re-hardenned at some point in their history. But we only recognise this in swords that have not been re-tempered well.

Hi Ludolph, Thank you for the information. The fact you have such a large publication about his oshigata confirms the scale of the deceipt. What is the general opinion of his skill as a swordsmith? I assume he must have been very skilled to be able to fake so many high ranking smiths. It is a great shame that someone with what appears to have been considerable talent used it so dishonestly.

All, Im looking for information on Kajihei, the son/student of Jiritaro Naokatsu. He seems to have a mixed reputation in that he was a highly skilled smith but specilaised in making counterfeit blades of top Koto and Shinto smiths. Trying to work out whether he was a victim of the times trying to survive the downturn in demand for swords or just a dishonest but highly skilled crook. All information/ leads gratefully received. thanks PaulB

Brian, Sorry I wasnt trynig to argue for arguments sake and I am sure the subject has been covered before. I can fully accept Fords view that part of their appeal is their place in history. And as you say there are, I am sure, some very fine examples as well as some less good. My only concern is that it is too easy to get caught up in enthusiasm/ hype, particularly when starting out. It does no harm to ask why is something so good? why does it have such a reputation? How does it rate when you look at the four fundementals, shape, hada, hamon and nakago?We do it all the time with the lesser regarded schools so shouldnt we do it with those at the other end of the scale? I am not saying Yasukuni swords are bad or good I am asking what the enthusiasts see in them (other than their place in history) that makes them so excited. regards Paul

At fear of introducing controversy, I can think of many thousands of things which are more collectible than Yasakuni blades! I have only seen a few in hand so my exposure is limited. However I fail to see why these are so enthusiatically collected and so highly priced. they just do not seem to measure up to the quality of Koto Shinto or Shin-shinto blades of a similar price. Some time ago it was suggested that Yasakuni blades were oil tempered. I think this view has since been modified in to some form of post hardenning stress relief. Even so the majority of blades claiming to be Yasakuni seem to have little merit. Sorry for the philistine view, I remember being told once " Its good that these swords look so boring to the uneducated, it means only the true student truly appreciates them" Well I guess that means I am not a true student, OR the emperor has another suit of new clothes. Could someone please enlighten this uneducated (but willing to learn) northerner? regards Paul

Hi Ford, Just wanted to check your comment regarding black laquered same and doe skin binding. You mentioned it was a Higo trait. I thought it was a more general style relating to a period (Tensho) rather than specific area. There are many alternative theories as to why laquer same such as sign of retired samurai but your explanation makes more sense. A while ago I completed a Koshirae in Tensho style but it does not have Higo koshirae. The tsuba is early Owari the other fittings date from around Tensho. Is this a mistake on my part?

having the same problem John. Have contacted the Vp in the Uk to ask for help

Saw historian sell a tanto with NBTHK papers recently but I couldnt work out which generation it was by. Other than that I cant remember seeing an authenticated (papered) one for more than 5 years. Have seen some that could have been but not with too much cerainty.

All I have copied below a mail from Jim Gilberts board. This was posted by my colleague from the Northern Token society and is I think self explanitory. If you have any questions regarding the content please either contact Dave at the address provided or mail me. thanks Paul Dear List members, First of all let me apologise for taking up bandwidth time on the discussion group, however I wanted to drop a line to all those concerned people in the sword collecting fraternity both in the U.K. and around the world. As I am sure all of you will know the U.K. home office has been charged with the task of creating the legislation document which will aim to ban Japanese swords (and quite possibly any other edged sword). The home office have published their consultation document and are inviting comments on 7 specific questions posed. As this is a public consultation document it will invite all kinds of comments from inside and outside of the sword collecting world. The Northern Token Society (U.K.) have been actively involved with the home office to help inform and guide them in order to help shape what we hope will be a positive outcome. Our chairman Mr Ian Bottomley, Secretary Mr Steve Smith along with Paul Bowman and myself have been having dialogue via phone, Email and have met with the very people at the home office who are creating the legislation in which we had a very productive meeting discussing at length the definition of a Japanese sword amongst other issues (many of the points raised have been incorporated into the consultation document). There are links to all our correspondance and a link to the home office consultation document on our web site http://www.northerntokenso ciety.co. uk for those wish to have a read and reply to the home office. I would ask that everyone who has not as yet done so to reply tho the Home office with answers to the questions posed on the consultation document but please understand that this process is now about the home office collating the responses into 3 groups. 1. Yes answers. 2. No answers. and finally 3. No clear opinion. So please be definite. Your answer can then be justified with a further statement and explaination as you see fit, once again apologies if I am stating the obvious but this part is important to the final outcome. Finally just to outline what we believe will be the home office 'preferred' outcome, this will be:- 1. An inclusion on the banned weapons list of Japanese swords (and possibly other edged weapons dependant on how the definition is framed) 2. Exemptions for original Japanese swords (the definition they are working with covers all Japanese swords from all periods right up to modern day. 3. Exemptions for legitamate use of swords ie. Martial arts, re-enactment, theatre etc. This of course is not a guaranteed outcome but rest assured we will be doing all we can as a society to The perfect outcome for us all would be that the Japanese sword does not appear on the banned weapons list but realistically I cannot see this happening. so the exemption route seems the most exceptable to the home office and to all us sword collectors. Thanks for taking time out to read this and please reply to the consultation document. If anyone wants any further info than please feel free to Email me direct if you wish at d.fuller30@ntlworld .com Kind regards David Fuller Executive Officer, Northern Token Society (U.K.)

As Darcy and Steven said provenance is significant. While it does not materially effect the sword the fact that it has been in a well known and reputable collection suggests firstly that it has been well looked after within that collection and secondly the collector concerned valued it and believed in its authenticity. It is increasingly common (probably now even the majority of times) that we buy blades unseen based on images rather than "in hand" Therefore there is some comfort factor to know that a collector who has spent as much or more time than us studying the blade felt it was worth keeping in their collection. This comfort factor is worth a premium to many buyers. regarding whether there are any collections of the magnitude of Doctor Comptons, I would doubt it, certainly not in the west. I think I read on Darcys website that there were currenty about 8000 juyo blades worldwide they certainly appear regularly on the better nihonto websites for sale but I cant remember ever seeing one offered on ebay or any other auction site.

I also read that these two eccentric gentlemen used to spend a lot of time together talking in a private language and laughing at each others comments. Passers by seeing two jolly hermits used to greet them only to be sworn at and cursed! It sounded a bit like me and fellow collectors in the north so I adopted them as my local heros and decorated the walls of my sword room with the attached water colour

Congratulations I think you have bought a very nice sword. I think it has a strong Hizen look, the lack of Nie that Peter mentioned is applicable to the first 3 and 8th generation but from the 4th onwards the amount of nie decreased dramatically, so not really an indicator as to whether this is the work of the 6th generation. I would discount the 7th, his work is incredibly rare, infact in some circles his existence is disputed. So you are left looking at the 6th. I dont think the mei is right, but I do think it is a very good looking sword and I am envious of your purchase. well done.

As I rember the NTHK looked at around 200 swords over the two days. and probably a similar number of fittings

Brian, you got there ahead of me just as I was trying to become creative. Story of my life. In support of yours and Rich and Guidos points I would add the following observations. I was heavily invloved in the London NTHK shinsa. I believe that the overseas shinsas are a much more difficult process than perhaps the ones carried out locally in Japan, the enviroment and time pressures are all different. Therefore I am sure that on occassion mistakes are made. The judges are, like the rest of us, human (thank God). Also in London people had the opportunity to discuss the results with panel members so if the owner was unhappy or didnt understand the result they could find out why the team beleived what they did. However the vast majority of attributions appear to be acceptable to the the owners and I think that the benefit derived from these events is considerable and deserves recognition. Unfortunately satisfied customers rarely comment so we tend to get a one sided view. As you say Brian the level of knowledge and quantity of reaearch material available to the shinsa teams of both NBTHK and NTHK far exceed what we have access to. Therefore I beleive their opinion carries a great deal of weight. Taking up Gudios point about armchair experts, I was recently involved with the purchase of a blade which had passed juyo shinsa in 2002. As soon as some local "experts"saw it they commented how much easier it was to get Juyo papers now than in the past, and that the modern papers were somehow devalued. Strangely the same people when looking at a sword with much earlier Juyo papers made the point that the sword would never be papered today because it was much harder to achieve Juyo status. You cant have it both ways and there will always be the sideline swipers who try and demonstrate their superior knowledge by making supposedly learned and cynical comments. As said by others attributions are an opinion albeit a vey educated one. People are human and do make mistakes. However in the overwhelming majority of cases the opinions of the NBTHK and NTHK are more accurrate than anything else available to us.