paulb

Hi Les In the article Ray mentions in the original post I quote a very well respected collector, sadly no longer with us. He made three disitnctions 1. Art 2. fine Art 3. High Art While not following the general definition you mention (which BTW I think is very succinct and accurate) I think the way these are defined can help when looking at different levels of swords. I wont repeat it all here but if interested you might take a look at the article and see if and how it fits in to your thinking.

don't blaspheme!!! on a Sunday too Yes I agree they tend to be lumped together for the sake of neatness and trying to get everything to fit somewhere within the 5 traditions. If you remember in Berlin I was trying to explore the Unji-Yamashiro link. I think the examples there really helped illustrate the idea. I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that so many of the differences so clearly identified in those text we have all been brought up on are far less concrete and a great deal more subtle. By the time you are back in early Kamakura (this sword isn't it is very late Kamakura) those differences become even more blurred.

Hi Michael, Not Bizen but Aoe I know it is only 40 ish miles away but I always describe Aoe as using the same material as Bizen and working with Yamashiro techniques. Not strictly true but it helps to illustrate the differences so my non Bizen credentials remain intact (at least for now!!)

In attempt to offer something more concrete and less theoretical please take a look at the attached images. This is a sword I have had the opportunity to study at length over the past 10 years. It is extremely robust and although O-suriage retains a magnificent sugata. There is no doubt, at least in my mind, that it was manufactured to fulfill its prime function, to cut and to do that effectively. At the same time the sugata, hada and hamon combine to create something that is stunningly beautiful. Every time I have looked at it it causes the hair on the back of my neck to rise and a tightening in my throat. Exactly the same physical response I got two weeks ago studying some of the fine art in The Frans Hals museum in Haarlem. I cannot explain this reflex other than to say it is an emotional response in appreciation of something that has been incredibly crafted. The Smith has taken well beyond being a cutting device and made it a work of art. All art is a contest between artist and material, in the case of this blade the smith took iron and charcoal and with fire, a hammer and anvil created an artefact which some 700 years later still has the ability to illicit a strong emotional response. This Is an example of where I believe a sword transcends functionality and becomes something much more than a cutting tool. tsunetsugu.tif

Arnold I think you make a very valid point regarding condition of blades made at local (i.e. not in Japan) Shinsa's I think I mentioned previously that there was some considerable difference between swords being submitted on the first and second shinsa's held in the UK. In the first there was a very high proportion of signed blades recieving pink papers as gimei. Mumei works on the other hand recieved a paper, it may not have been what the collector hoped for but it was a paper. Second time round those whose prime object was to obtain a paper realised their best bet was to submit a mumei blade thus the ratio of unsigned to signed rose significantly. What didnt change was the general condition which was in general ranging from not very good to poor. The question I asked then and still do is if you cant see any detail on a sword to make some form of appraisal how do you expect the judges to? Their expertise is in linking particular features to a given tradition or school not to see characteristics that are obliterated by poor condition. This being the case why are we surprised when their best guess may be just that, a guess. Generally swords submitted in Japan are in a reasonable to very good state of polish. This makes the process of appraisal feasible and altogether a more accurate process. Sorry if this sounds cynical. I have, as have many others, had mixed fortunes with papering and experienced first hand some inconsistencies. However I think the western expectations from the process sometimes get out of line with the original idea behind it. It has become increasingly a shortcut in attempting to increase value by adding a paper to the package and remove the need for the buyer to satisfy themselves about what they are buying.

I think we might be getting bogged down in the painting/sword comparison. I am afraid I may have been less clear than I should. The point I was and am trying to make is that regardless of medium and functionality it is when the artist/craftsman/artisan goes over and above the basic function of the object it develops in to art. The inital function of a painting was to communicate an image or illustrate a story. Once it goes beyond that and inspires an emotional response it becomes something more. The function of a sword is to cut as has been said above on several occassions but much of the beauty described in a blade has gone far beyond adding features to improve functionality. At that point a functional object evolves in to a form of art. The comparison with sculpture is equally valid as is any other craft or art form.

Hi Ray Thank you for your post it has made me think again about the appreciation of swords as art. Having read the article you mentioned you will know, I hope, that my personal view is that at its best the Japanese sword is a true example of high art. It goes well beyond functionality and it transmits an image to the observer which can trigger a complex range of emotional response. This, in my opinion, is what fine art does. In response to a number of points you raised and remembering this is totally subjective so the following is offered as a point of view not a statement of fact; A copy can never be as good as an original. A true copy can at best demonstrate the copyist's technical competence. What it lacks is the vison, imagination, originality and spontaneity of the original work. If the later artist modifies or changes the work to add something of their own then by definition it is no longer a copy. I think art was and is primarily a form of communication. It offered a way to transmit ideas and information which was understandable to a largely illiterate population. What the greatest artists did was to take this beyond simple communication imbuing their work with something altogether stronger in terms of emotion, perception and energy. Again I believe the same is true of swords. As Chris points out swords are primarily produced as a functional tool but the greatest smiths go far beyond the creation of a utilitarian object adding a great deal more to what they produce. While much of its form is based on its primary objective, to cut, It reaches a point where the intrinsic beauty eclipses it's primary functionality. This level of artistic commitment can be seen time and again in the work of master smiths throughout sword making history. In some cases this artistry shouts at you in others in takes effort and concentration to fully reveal the intricacy of the workmanship but in all cases it is there. In it's truest form an art sword takes supreme craftsmanship, and understanding of materials and combines them with vision and imagination in a completely spontaneous way. This is exactly what the greatest painters and sculptors of their day did as well. The above is a point of view, it happens to be mine and one that has developed over a very long time. It is by no means the only view, probably far from unique and many will have their own and different perspective's. That is one of the things that makes this subject so interesting Thanks Ray for the original post.

Chris As always there is no hard or fast rule and I am sure some better work had lacquered hi (although I dont remember seeing any) most often I have seen them on utilitarian yari and naginata.

Chris, The following are opinions not fact but based on what I understand to be the case. 1. There are differences between the NTHK and NBTHK what they look for and the criteria they work too (at least those that are published) do vary. As to which is best depends who you ask and when you ask. Both have very knowdgeable people with well proven credentials. At present the NBTHK seems to be the go to organisation but the overseas service offered by both NTHK groups can have advantages for people not wanting to ship swords to Japan and go through the process. Certainly from a commercial point of view I think NBTHK papers carry more weight than any other. 2. Regarding who submits the sword, it shouldnt make any difference and in an ideal world swords would be viewed without knowing who has submitted them. Does it happen or has it in the past? well human nature being what it is probably. But if it has such incidents were few and far between I think. In the latest Tokubetsu Juyo results the successful submissions included a number of non Japanese collectors as well as dealers. I fear that some of this view is the result of someone not getting the results they wanted and looking at the process rather than the sword to see why it failed. 3. The process and examination for a Juyo shinsa is more strenuous and the committee take longer on each blade than they do on lower level papers. While this justifies some of the higher cost the reality is that obtaining these higher papers has a significant impact on market value and the charges rightly or wrongly reflect this financial benefit. hope this answers your questions adequately. Best Regards paul

Jussi I think you make a great deal of sense in youre mail. I was equally tken by the comments in the NBTHK journal you quoted. There is no doubt that the the only way to gain a really deep understanding of this or any other art form is by studying as many good examples as you can and truthfully we (I) dont have a hope in hell of seeing a tenth of what would be available were I resident in Japan. This is my own fault for choosing to study a subject so distant. WHile I fully agree that these bodies have greater expertise than anyone else and I would back their opinion over most others they can and do make mistakes on occasion. I have personal experience of this and over the years heard many other examples. They are human and can on occasion get it wrong. I don't think this is a frequent occurrence and certainly agree that such claims usually emanate from a disappointed submission. Ian I am a little staggered by your Australian Shinsa example. To obtain Juyo papers requires much greater analysis than lower level papers. Given that process I would have to say that given the choice between believing the NBTHK Juyo panel and a local NTHK shinsa my money would go on the former. Saying "The NBTHK got it wrong" sounds both arrogant and foolhardy. However I wasn't there so am not familiar with either sword or details. Alex If it is any consolation after 30 odd years of study I still regard myself as a beginner so don't feel too bad you are not alone in your P***** in the wind feeling but it is a study worth pursuing.

depends on the shipping agent and the service you use. Parcelforce subcontracted their fastest services to Fedex which has caused problems. People have been more successful on the slightly slower alternatives they offer and handle directly. The big problem is always insurance as they will not insure antiques. Edit-Sorry I didn't answer your question correctly. Yes it is legal to send swords via the post in the UK. However as a matter of policy some carriers will not accept them. Royal mail, Fedex and several others do not carry them. The choices are becoming increasingly limited

Sorry to be the odd one out but I really dont like the koshirae. While the individual elements are ok (although they look very blingy) they look very strange sitting on this saya and tsuka. They just look thrown on there is no real finness or consistancy. This combined with the "tarts Boudoir" red lacquer makes the whole think look cheap and nasty. Just as well we dont all like the same thing!!

Hi Ken, I understand your point about boshi in general but that wasnt really what I was getting at. I was looking not so much at the pattern as the step change in width of the hamon as it enters the kissaki. It becomes narrower by about 50-60%. It looks wrong (at least to me) Having seen the other images I am also in the shinto or later camp but I think it has some issues.

Scott . At the very least it needs to be seen out of mounts. Not so interested in the mei but the nakago can tell you a great deal regarding age and possible school. As is I don't think there is sufficient detail visible to offer much of an opinion. However two areas of concern are firstly the bo-hi seems to have a major bend or distortion in it which suggests it is either badly cut or has had some heavy impact damage. Secondly the kissaki and boshi look wrong. The hamon runs up to where the yokote is supposed to be but then the proportion in the kissaki and shape totally changes. It may suggest the kissaki has been damaged and reworked.

Chris Not seeing anything in your images so I am guessing but what you are describing sounds like ji-nie. Nie is formed from harder steel (martensite) which shows itself as very small bright (sparking) dots. They are often described as crystal, which they arent, but this gives you some idea of their brightness. When these nie granules combine they form larger features within the ji-hada such as chickei and activity within the hamon such as inazuma and kinsuji. I think what you are seeing is likely to be something of this nature. edit- sorry Geraint beat me to it

Josh Shingunto simply translates as "New Army" and refers to the various types of mount used in the showa period. More recently it has been used to generally describe non traditionally made blades. It is a little like the term Showa-to which refers to blades made in the showa era but again is now used for machine made work. Deciding whether your sword is hand made or not is challenging in its current condition. In its favour the mei looks reasonalby cut and the yasurime nicely done. There appears to be a hamon but it is not possible to see detail As previously mentioned when this sword was made there were fewer machine made pieces being produced. Also it has no arsenal stamps. These are good pointers to it being traditionally made but to be sure you need to put it in front of an experienced collector and consider having it polished. Fortunaltely there is a fully trained polisher in Auatralia who I am sure would be happy to offer advice.

As is known by those who have the misfortune to be cornered by me at various meetings I am a great believer and advocate of kantei as an effective learning tool. While I understand and agree to some extent with Marius' points I think anything that encourages people to take part in such exercises is a benefit. However to gain more benefit from any such activity it would be far better if rather than just saying "It's x" is saying why you think it is what you do. Say what you can see and how that leads you to the answer you have. Really all you are doing is logging the process you went through to reach the answer and by doing so you can see if your observations are accurate and your answer holds up. Just saying it is by x tells anyone trying to learn virtually nothing. Matt As Brian says don't be discouraged. As one whose photographic skills have never been the same since losing his kodak instamatic in 1968 I can promise some of us are far worse. and keep posting these when you can. Kantei rules!!

dont know what it is but not a WW1 sword

As said Steve continuing this is really pointless as you obviously have a very blinkered view. Yes our news covers all the things you mention. and yes we see such things. In fact the BBC goes out of its way to be brtually factual on reporting issues. Yes you can arm yourselves inthe USA and that is why there are so many more murders, mass killings and such as there are in the UK I dont agree with much legislation here nor the namny state but I do find it difficult to accept criticsm of my country from those fed misinformation by fox news and the like, oh yes and your president as well ie. "London is now a muslim war zone" As I said this is going nowhere and no-one can win this debate. You can continue to believe what you want and I will continue to disagree with you, particularly with the type of comment that starting this argument which is just wrong

Gentlemen I feel we are allowing this thread to drift far away from it's original theme as a result of one ill judged comment. Might I repsectfully suggest there is little to no benefit in relation to the original post (which I think has been covered) or indeed anything elase by continuing down this path.

Steve, Not sure of your sources of information but that comment is neither accurate nor I am afraid to say, helpful. There has been a large increase in knife crime, much of it based around gang cultures in some of the more deprived areas of cities, but not exclusively so. Certainly not exclusively down to immigrant or ethnic minority groups either These simplistic sound bite policies offer no real solution and only intensify the problem.

Dear All To go through this in detail will require time and a level of concentration. However as Malcolm says this is a progression of something initially discussed in April when the then Home secretary wanted to be seen to be taking action after a spate of acid attacks and a dramatic increase in teenage knife crime. I have scanned through this but as said I need to look in greater detail. I should also state very clearly I am not a lawyer and have no legal background so the following comments are based on what I hope are common sense and also our shared experience when dealing with the Home Office in 2005. 1. The legislation specifcally targets the sale of corrosive substances and edged weapons to under 18s. And the sale o these items remotely. 2. It goes on to mention specific knives such as "zombie knives" flick knives (switch blade knives). 3. It then attempts to clarify and strengthen legislation relating to police action and prosecution for possession and supply of these items. 4. It then out lines a number of defences for buying or carrying an edged weapon. These include "it is an item of historical importance" "it is used in re-enactment" or for sporting activity. 5. When the original amendments came out in 2005 I was concerned that there was a ban on swords with a curved blade or so called Samurai swords. It listed a number of defences but did not mention antique weapons. When I queried this I was told that as there was no change to the existing law relating to the exemption of antique weapons it did not need to be mentioned in the revised bill. I think the same applies here this is an amendment to an existing bill. It describes only the additions and what is changing. If something isn't subject to change it is not necessary to mention it. So until such times as the defences and exemptions relating to antique or traditionally made Japanese swords ae changed they will not appear. As said the above is based on previous experience but I think is reasonably solid. We do of course need to keep a close watch on what the incumbent minister chooses to do but as things stand these modifications do not appear to directly effect our subject. If anyone has additional information or another view on this I would be grateful to hear it and we can of course act on such information. I believe Clive Sinclaire is in contact with various Kendo groups who have expressed concern about some of the restrictions described but I haven't heard of any changes since the initial contact in April.

thank you Peter I'll take a look later today.

Ian Hs there some specific proposal or legislation you are referring to? I have run a quick search on the home office website and their policy appears unaltered since we were involved back in 2005/6. I think they may have added more detail relating to kitchen knives, zombie knives (whatever they are) but the exemptions for authentic Japanese swords appear unchanged. If there is a specific proposal other than that mentioned a few months ago relating to knives do you have a link? Many thanks Paul

info sent let me know if it hasnt arrived Best Regards Paul