Sword Sellers

[Ken-Hawaii]

Okay, if we look back a few hundred years, who was actually selling the swords that the tosho forged & the togi polished? I assume that there were brokers of some sort, but did they get their stock of blades directly from the source, or were swords scrounged off the many battlefields?

 

One reason for this question is figuring out who would be most likely to sign a gimei blade...the tosho, togishi, or some kind of a middleman? Whoever it was would obviously have to know enough about elite blades to at least come close to recognizing sugata, jigane, hamon, etc., or he'd just be laughed out of business. I know that Hideyoshi & the Tokugawas all had utsushi made & signed gimei to give as rewards, because they were running out of fiefs, but I'm wondering about the lower levels of gimei-dom.

 

One good thing about the Tokugawas was that artists weren't as segregated from the community, & so a tosho's blade was recognized as much as, or maybe more than, an art piece than as a weapon of war. That's why Samurai were buying the flashy Shinto & Shinshinto blades most of us collect, but that still gave somebody the chance to sign gimei.

 

Ken

 

[Fuuten]

Well from what I've read there have been smiths making fake signatures.. I'm assuming there have also been brokers and others who did the same.

 

I think smiths were forced in case business was bad, just like today when the less scrupulous find ways to make money. I'm hesitant to mention this, but if i recall correctly it was Naotane who did some gimei as well - now i could be totally mistaken, but it was one of the big names.

[PNSSHOGUN]

A good Utsushi suddenly becomes the real thing once it leaves the hands of the smith and goes into the open market.

[seattle1]

Hello Ken:

 Yours is a really interesting question, one I have never seen raised before. It goes into the entire issue of selling market structure and mechanisms. Perhaps Markus Sesko, with his wide and deep knowledge of the literature, could provide some hints if he has time in his busy schedule.

 Arnold F.

[Alex A]

Well from what I've read there have been smiths making fake signatures.. I'm assuming there have also been brokers and others who did the same.

 

I think smiths were forced in case business was bad, just like today when the less scrupulous find ways to make money. I'm hesitant to mention this, but if i recall correctly it was Naotane who did some gimei as well - now i could be totally mistaken, but it was one of the big names.

Naomitsu (Kajihei) was the most famous forger, same line of smiths

[ken kata]

Sent 10 May 2018 - 06:57 AM

Hello  Guys.. 

Just a thought.

This is evident in the nuclear world.

 

VS1 is based on actual personal observation.

No deviation..

No one was with the Sword all of the sword's life.

How could anything be accounted for, or , verified in the vastness of time.

 

 

VS 2 -   Base on certified records or references.

The person signing , says the item meets  all of the requirements of a "said" Reference /Document.

 

 Sorry, disreguard if not relavent.  

 

Just from my experience in the Nuclear world. 

 

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yours is a really interesting question, one I have never seen raised before. It goes into the entire issue of selling market structure and mechanisms. Perhaps Markus Sesko, with his wide and deep knowledge of the literature, could provide some hints if he has time in his busy schedule.

Thanks, Arnold. We'll probably have to bypass Markus for now, as his new job as visiting researcher at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York will be keeping him busy for the next year. I won't contact him directly, but if he happens to see this thread, & chooses to respond, I'd love to get his opinions.

 

My own research on who was actually marketing blades came up with one name, Amiya Soemon, who sold high-end blades during the late Shinshinto period, including Kiyomaro's. Unfortunately, other than a few bits & pieces, I can't find any details about how & when the Amiya Store was set up, although it is still going in Tokyo & Osaka today. I did find an interesting doctoral dissertation, "Commercial & Industrial Contract Labor in Central Japan, 1672-1873," but it didn't address the selling of swords. What it did mention was that ronin were consistently denied work in established stores, which makes me wonder if that might have convinced or forced a few of the more-literate Samurai to scrounge battlefield swords, & write gimei, in lieu of having honest work. Kind of a shot in the dark, I know.

 

There is also an interesting writeup on sword brokers in the book, The New Generation of Japanese Swordsmiths, but it's only a two-page blurb, & since I don't collect Gendaito, I don't have the book. It's available as a Google search term. I'll keep digging.

[Bazza]

Well, Dear Sword Ffolke, read the story of Musui the samurai (google it).

 

From Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Musuis-Story-Autobiography-Tokugawa-Samurai/dp/0816512566

we read:

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A series of picaresque adventures set against the backdrop of a Japan still closed off from the rest of the world, Musui's Story recounts the escapades of samurai Katsu Kokichi. As it depicts Katsu stealing, brawling, indulging in the pleasure quarters, and getting the better of authorities, it also provides a refreshing perspective on Japanese society, customs, economy, and human relationships.

From childhood, Katsu was given to mischief. He ran away from home, once at thirteen, making his way as a beggar on the great trunk road between Edo and Kyoto, and again at twenty, posing as the emissary of a feudal lord. He eventually married and had children but never obtained official preferment and was forced to supplement a meager stipend by dealing in swords, selling protection to shopkeepers, and generally using his muscle and wits.

Katsu's descriptions of loyalty and kindness, greed and deception, vanity and superstition offer an intimate view of daily life in nineteenth-century Japan unavailable in standard history books. Musui's Story will delight not only students of Japan's past but also general readers who will be entranced by Katsu's candor and boundless zest for life.

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My emphasis

 

There are numerous other hits with their slant on the story.

 

BazZa.

[Ken-Hawaii]

That story covers late Shinshinto, BazZa. Do you know of anything earlier?

[Bazza]

Hi Ken, sorry, no I don't.

 

BazZa.

[Peter Bleed]

Barry has - once again - hit the nail on the head. I reviewed Musui's Tale for the JSSUS NL years back. There is another treatment of swordsmith fakery in the Victorian fellow's Tales of Old Japan. Another book that should be in all our libraries!.

And "yes", Ken, this is all very late in sword history. But you have to look where you can see. I do not think that sword behavior suddenly got worse during Shinshinto times. Likewise, I doubt that any "new" techiques were invented at that time. That may simply be when popular literature was created about sharp practices. It may also, of course, be when lots of the fakes and doctored stuff we see were created.

Bottom line, fakery and misrepresentation are well established parts of the the "way of the sword."

Peter

[Gakusee]

 

 

Swordsmiths in the past were affiliated to Daimyo families and clans. Their forges were where customers were and they had a sort of “captive” customer base. So there was no need for an intermediary, especially during the earlier periods and the sengoku era.

 

Anecdotally, I have inferred for myself that sword dealing / selling by parties other than swordsmiths emerged and spread more in the peaceful Edo times, when Samurai fell on harder times and the merchant class aggrandised. Ronin roamed around, some samurai had to sell their cherished belongings, sword shops probably emerged to address the problems of both smiths (not much, or frequent, demand for new swords) and samurai (who occasionally had to sell their swords and/or kodogu to make ends meet).

 

I have also met sword dealers in Japan who claim to be 4/5 generation dealers and that takes us back to Shinshinto times, as illustrated by Musui above.