Appraisal of a katana request

[JeffT]

Hello all! This is my first time writing on the board, so greetings to you all from North Carolina, USA.

 

My question is in regards to a katana I may be offering to buy soon. Please know I have been saving $ for quite a while now and this would be my first investment in a nihonto blade. While I confess to being somewhat ignorant in such matters, hopefully I am wise enough to consider the input of others with valued opinions before committing a large (to me it is large anyway) amount of $ on this piece.

 

My background is I have been practicing martial arts for most of my life (30+ years) but have much more experience in Chinese, Tibetan, Thai, and Filipino arts and their weaponry and methods than I do specifically Japanese sword play. I own perhaps a dozen Japanese swords and am somewhat familiar with the terms used to describe such. I have read some books on the subject, such as The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Kapp & Yoshihara. I have and practiced some with the katana in iaito and tameshigiri, but certainly am a beginner in this field at this stage. I have some carpentry skill and have customized some of my own swords; however, overall I remain a novice, especially in comparision to the experience on hand here.

 

That said, I humbly request some feedback on the item attached. It is has Kanteisyo, which indicates the blade was made at middle to late Muromachi period. It is mumei and attributed as Sue Mihara Bingo province.

 

Any advice you can give me on a reasonable price for this item and any positive & negative attributes which strike you about it are invited and appreciated. Please see the enclosed attachments of said piece:

 

Thank you all for your time and effort in this regard.

 

Best wishes,

~ Jeff

[cabowen]

From what the pictures show, it looks to be a nice blade....much better than what most people start out with!

[Marius]

You say "katana" - may I ask how long the cutting edge is?

[Jean]

Jeff,

 

I fail to understand:

 

- you say you own a dozen Japanese blades but that this is your first investment in Nihonto??

 

The blade is fine and I agree with Chris'comments but I don't advise it as an investment, for the following reason:

 

For the Japanese experts, so many blades where forged in Muromachi that there is no reason not to get one no suriage.

 

A suriage Muromachi blade won't get a higher paper than Tokubetsu Hozon in NBTHK, I let people who have the NBTHK Zufu volumes list from N°1, the number of Muromachi suriage blades which are Juyo

[JeffT]

I understand is probably the confusion due to the choice of words. It appears I misspoke... pardon.

Clarification: I own a dozen or so Japanese-style swords (e.g., katana, wakizashi, tanto, iaido, bokutō) and none but the bokutō is made in Japan. Rather, they are modern reproductions of Japanese style made in other countries (e.g., China) from the usual suspects (e.g., Hanwei, Huanuo, etc.).

 

Also my apologies for not including the relevant information to begin with:

 

Nagasa = 627mm = 24.7"

Sori = 8mm

Nakago = Kiri-jiri = Gata Shakibari

Sugata = Shinogi Zukuri with shallow peaked back Ihori Mune

Jihada = Ko Mokume burl wood-grain

Hamon = Medium Suguba with some slight undulations following the Masame Jihada all in Nioi and extremely fine Nie

 

Best wishes,

~ Jeff

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Jeff, at 62,7 cm, I'll let it pass for reasons already stated. All depends on your budget.

Are there any reason you should stick to Koto?

[JeffT]

I understand suriage makes this a short blade in the realm of katana. Since my prior experience in swordplay has been years of mostly Chinese jian & Filipino espada y daga that are one-handed, I am used to handling a shorter sword than the standard katana. So weilding a two-handed sword such as katana is a relatively new experience for me.

 

Obviously with a blade this old, I wouldn't exactly be practicing with it. Perhaps just test drive it a little once in a while, but mostly it would be acquired for display/preservation purposes.

 

No reason for Koto but personal preference, meaning there is something about an older blade which specifically interests me... perhaps simply an appreciation for the length of time the blade has existed.

 

I am not limiting the possibilities to pre-1600 only. Certainly cost is the main criterion.

 

Another relevant factor in this is I have bought a few items in the past from the specific dealer offering this blade, & so have developed some level of trust because I am pleased with the items received thus far.

 

That said, I'm not sure I trust anyone enough to not ask for 2nd & 3rd opinions :lol:

 

Best wishes,

~ Jeff

[Jacques]

HI,

 

A suriage Muromachi blade won't get a higher paper than Tokubetsu Hozon in NBTHK,

 

Hozon only, nothing else.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jeff,

Adding to what Jean said. O suriage at 24.7" and papered to Sue Mihara is not a terribly desirable sword. If the price is right, there aren't any defects not shown in your pictures, and you really want it, then it is an OK purchase (it is real and Sue Mihara isn't junk). But chances are, if you stick with Nihonto, the day will come when you wish you had better, and this won't be an easy sword to sell.

If I were in your position I'd hold onto my money, buy a few better books, study all I can, get to a Japanese sword show or 2 (San Francisco in August, Tampa next February) and ask lots of questions, and with more experience and knowledge you'll be able to make a more informed choice in sword.

Grey

[Ken-Hawaii]

You realize, of course, that Jeff has also asked what a "reasonable price" would be for this blade....

 

Ken

[JeffT]

Grey ~

 

Thank you for your consideration. This is the sort of advice I was after.

 

As stated previously, I am relatively new to Japanese swords and am after some wisdom.

 

In accord with your thoughts, this is a long term purchase and being able to see the potential purchase from a long-term perspective is needed.

 

My gut instinct is that though my enthusiasm for an antique sword is high, I should probably exercise patience and put more effort and time into finding the right sword that really speaks to me.

 

Indeed, as Ken re-iterated, I also would like some idea of what this sword reasonably would be expected to bring on the open market to help gauge the seller's fairness of offering price before making a final decision on whether to purchase...

 

Thank you again Grey, for getting to the heart of the matter quickly, which is from a the long-term perspective I have not yet cultivated.

 

Here is another image of the sword in question:

Best wishes,

~ Jeff

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jeff,

Assuming there are no defects not disclosed and that the polish is close to perfectly intact, I would expect to sell this for close to $1,000. This is much less than went into the polish and paper and probably seems way low, but this wasn't necessarily the best choice of a blade to spend the money on. Someone took a chance on it and came up short.

Someone else might have a better idea (I'm not an authority), but if you think it should be more, ask yourself if you would spend more for this sword.

Hope this helps. Grey

ps. There will be lots of swords to choose from at a show and lots of free advice also.

pps. I'm pretty sure a suriage Muromachi sword can attain Tokubetsu Hozon; Juyo is the level not attainable post Nambokucho unless ubu. But even that rule can be bent. I know of a Tokubetsu Juyo sword that is early Shinto and slightly suriage.

[Peter Bleed]

Hefe,

This has been a fun and worthwhile thread. Thanks for getting it started. I have to agree with Grey. This looks like a nice sword. It can absorb lots of inspections and study. It is a real samurai sword. That said, and based on lots of looking, I think that this sword is worth a thousand dollars, BUT with a grand in your pocket you can and will be tempted by the lots of other blades that may have better "legs", blades that will take you farther and teach you more.

Is this a great hobby or what?

[runagmc]

Personally, with the prices I've seen lately, I would think between 2 & 3 grand... not that I would pay that, but that's what I would expect to see it listed for. I'd say a thousand would be a pretty good deal considering you can't even hardly get a non traditional gunto in decent condition for that anymore. Just my 2 cents...

[Surfson]

This blade on ebay would go for at least $2500, and probably over $3K in my opinion.

[hxv]

I agree with Bob. With NBTHK Hozon and no obvious flaws, at least $2k-$3k. $1k is what you would expect to pay for a so-so showato in gunto mounts with no papers, of course).

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[hxv]

Hi Jeff,

 

I'm probably sticking my neck out a little too far here. If the asking price for the blade in question is below $3k, and you like the blade, I would go for it if I were you. If and when the time comes, you could easily recoup your money. If the asking price is over $3k, and I have the feeling it is, I would hesitate as you will take a loss when it's time to sell the blade. It all depends on how much of a loss you are willing to tolerate for the right to hold the blade in hand to study it at your leisure. IMHO, Nihonto are pretty much like financial stocks. You don't own them. You are a temporary custodian, and in effect, you rent them. I hope what I said helps a little.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[paulb]

I also think the valuation of this blade at $1000 is a little harsh. While agreeing to some extent with Jean's points this still appears to be a sword in good condition (ie. Hozon "worthy of preservation"). The cost of papering alone would take you close if not over that figure. I agree that in general sue Mihara work does not compare to ko-mihara, which has been much discussed here, but I have seen some beautiful workmanship attributed to sue- mihara by one authority and described as resembling the work of Ryokai by another.

You cannot see enough here to make a good value call, but if it is as it appears then I tend to go along with the $2-$3k price tag as a minimum.

However a very loud reminder, do not buy swords as an investment. Buy them because you like them and will enjoy them. If you are lucky when it comes time to sell them you may get your money back or even a little more. Swords like this will never suddenly become a sort after rarity commanding a very high price. Like all antiques values fluctuate, at the moment we are in a trough which has lasted a long while and shows little sign of improving.

[Jean]

To sum up, it depends on your goal and budget...

 

But, it is too short, unless you aim to use it for tameshigiri or Iai.

 

For Iaï, it is definitely to short, for tameshigiri, with one hand ....in any case, all members will frown upon anybody using antiques for such purpose

[Brian]

$1000? No way.

That's Gunto prices, as mentioned. You can't buy a papered wakizashi for that price, never mind a katana in decent condition. If someone can offer a similar papered katana for $1000..I'll take it.

Yeah...between $2000-3000 is about right. In spite of the suriage, the fact that it is firmly a katana and not a terrible school would make this an ok buy under $2500 in my opinion. You can study and learn a lot from it, and still get your money back when you upgrade it.

 

Brian

[JeffT]

Hi all! Your valued experience has been very helpful, and I thank you for your time and efforts.

 

I did not mention upfront what the seller was asking for this blade on purpose, so as to illicit your unbiased opinions on its value.

 

The seller is offering it for $3200, which is in line with the range of what many here have stated.

 

This does at least two things:

 

First, it reaffirms my belief this is an honorable vendor, as he is offering it in the ballpark of what it can reasonably expected to fetch on the open market.

 

Second, it lets me know this is not a "deal" in the sense it is not a very fortunate opportunity to find something selling below its reasonable value.

 

Since this is not a "deal" in the sense that the financial opportunity to save some $ while still buying a wonderful piece is not there, I'll pass on it.

 

So in sum, my intention is to eventually by an antique nihonto, and keep it long-term rather than sell it off later (if/when) I can afford something "better." I'm the kind of person who buys a car, then drives it till the wheels fall off rather than trying to upgrade to next year's model and having to make more car payments.

 

In this case, I don't literally mean I am going to use the sword for cutting 'till the point the blade bends. Rather I mean once I buy something like this, I'll make an effort to restore the fittings in a custom way so it means something to me personally, and then keep it for viewing/preservation purposes, without the intention to sell it later or "mow the yard" with it. Modern production swords are what I use for cutting, and they serve that purpose well without damaging an antique blade.

 

The advice offered here would be to study and learn more before purchasing any sword to make a more informed decision unless there is a sword on the table which is a "deal," and so you all didn't disappoint. I am going to follow this advice, as it is in accord with what my gut tells me to do.

 

Thanks again for all your considered opinions!

 

Best wishes,

~ Jeff

[Peter Bleed]

Well, Jeff, again, I thank you for an interesting thread.

I think what the forum is telling you is that this is a SWORD. It is handsome, historic, and worthy. I think the forum is also asking you to consider change and growth. If I had this sword - and wanted to sell it (!) - I'd take a K. The fact that eBay experts figure it has a fair asking price indicates that nobody is trying to cheat you. It also suggests that if you buy this sword, you had better plan on staying close to eBay and hope that there is a continuing crop of horny, naive new guys. That's who buys swords like this. The fact that this sword is for sale for the price you quote suggests that somebody sold it for about a grand - after getting it polished and papered. If you buy this sword, your babies won't starve. But in a relatively short time you will ask: Why did I buy this sword? Why was this era/school interesting to me? You mean that's all you want for THAT sword?

Please come to a sword show. Meet dealers and collectors. Buy books. Find a community.

Again thanks!

Peter