"Beginners" Sword

[Lingonberry]

I've been poking about this website (and reading the FAQ) as well as some commercial sword sites. What I've noticed is that the general consensus on getting started is to read as many books as you can, then read some more, then ask questions, then re-read everything, then eventually make your first purchase. Regarding the first purchase, the advice I've seen here is that one cannot learn very much from a scuffed/scratched/rusted sword and that the best swords to learn from are high quality blades in good polish. However, I assume it isn't wise to spend "high quality sword in good polish" kind of money on one's first sword, correct? Additionally, I've seen on a few commercial sword sites swords that are labeled or described as good swords for beginners even though they are comparatively inexpensive and not quite in good polish.

 

Is there such a thing as a "beginner sword," and if so would anyone be able to provide an example (e.g. from an expired ebay auction, sold items from a commercial site, etc...)? I'm guessing this question is a bit like asking "how long is a piece of string" as there are many things to consider but I'd like to have some sort of baseline/frame of reference if at all possible.

 

Secondly, would a beginner benefit much from an NBTHK membership or is that something best left for later once I've become a bit more familiar with the subject? (The reason I feel that it is prudent to ask is because the material in the newsletters may be a bit "over my head" since I'm still fairly new).

 

Finally, does anyone know where I can find hoshogami(?) sword cleaning paper in the US? I seem to have run out and would prefer not having to ship it all the way from Japan.

[b.hennick]

For $45 I suggest that you join the JSSUS. Go to http://www.jssus.org - look around and if interested click the join button. It will take you to Paypal where you send money to treasurer@jssus.org

With membership you will received 6 Newsletters that have several articles each as well as adds for sword shows and items for sale.

Regards,

Barry Hennick

Director/Ombudsman JSSUS

visit the JSSUS at http://www.jssus.org

[sanjuro]

Hi Adam.

 

Well you certainly seem to have developed all the right instincts prior to buying a first sword. Is there such a thing as a good beginners sword? Yes, but even with all the initial reading and a fair idea of what you should be looking for, it is still advisable to take along a trusted and knowledgeable person to your first purchase. Guys at the sword clubs such as already suggested are usually willing to advise guide and refer you to reliable places to buy swords. Most of them will remember how difficult a first purchase can be and will be sympathetic. :D

[runagmc]

In my own personal opinion, beginners who have never owned a collectable quality Nihonto before should start with a lower end one that's in good enough polish for the blade's characteristics to be viewable. You can get a good sue Muromachi wakizashi in good polish for a fraction of the price of higher end stuff. Something along the lines of a more mass prouced Bizen Sukesada wakizashi in good polish won't break your bank and will allow you to not only learn about Nihonto characteristics first hand, but also allow you to learn to do basic care and maintenance on a sword that's lower quality. This way if you make a beginner type mistake it won't be on an extremely expensive and important sword. That's my 2 cents...

[Lingonberry]

I would very much like to find people in my area to learn from but it doesn't seem like there are too many collectors in North Texas. There used to be a sword show in San Antonio (where I actually got my first, and only, sword [Kiyokane Tsutsui 1944 Kai Gunto]) but I can't seem to find it listed anywhere on anyone's "sword events" page.

 

I know I'm not allowed to post links to active auctions, but what about links to items on commercial sword sites? One of the commercial sites in the "links" section has a daisho for not too much, but both blades (especially the wakizashi) are quite tired. They still have nice koshirae though, as far as I can tell.

[Ken-Hawaii]

If you think you know enough, browse over to viewforum.php?f=4 where you will see lots for sale or trade.

 

Ken

[pcfarrar]

I was browsing ebay earlier and noticed this wakizashi which looks to be fairly decent for a beginner:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260965185178

[rkg]

Adam,

 

The best beginner sword belongs to somebody else.... You'd be money ahead to plan on traveling to one (or more) of the sword shows and just look at a bunch of swords, preferably along with some knowledgeable people to point out the features, pay the money to go to the kantei, etc. Seeing a number of pieces in hand will help you to see what you like/don't like, what problems look

like, etc.

 

That said, when you go to buy, you can pick up decent wakizashi pretty cheaply these days.

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Pete Klein]

Hi Adam -- not sure of where you live but if in the USA I would recommend the Chicago show at the end of April and/or the San Francisco show the first weekend of August. There is a link to the Chicago show here on the board and there is one for the San Francisco show at http://www.nihonto.com under Upcoming Shows.

[nagamaki - Franco]

I was browsing ebay earlier and noticed this wakizashi which looks to be fairly decent for a beginner:

 

why? I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot here, but when we recommend a sword for purchase, shouldn't we at least follow up with specific reasons (objectives, pro and con) why we're suggesting another person spends their money?

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm not sure what you're asking, Franco. Do you mean that someone should explain why the wakizashi on eBay is or is not a reasonable buy? Or that we should point Adam towards the NMB for-sale section because our members are more trustworthy? Or something else?

 

Generally, I feel that buyers get the most for their $$ buying wakizashi. But on the other hand, I don't lean towards referring people to eBay, especially newbies. And on the third hand (assuming I'm an octopus), if you're not buying a blade with origami, you're probably not maximizing your chances of getting a "genuine" Nihonto. I still have the first blade I bought...but mostly because it reminds me of why I should have done even more research before I spent my money.

 

Ken

[nagamaki - Franco]

I'm not sure what you're asking

 

Just what I said, present an explanation, a list, of why you're recommending the purchase of this sword [edit], because of a, b, c, d, and e. Where the sword is for sale is a side issue to whether or not the sword is worthy of buying in the first place and why.

[sanjuro]

I feel sort of obliged to stick my two cents worth in here.

 

Firstly I dont think that we should advise any one to buy a sword on the basis of having seen only photographs. Moreso since this is a beginners sword. Regardless of how many apparently good reason there are to consider the sword in question, that judgement is based only on what a seller is allowing us to see in photographs, not necessarily all of what is there when the sword is in hand. No beginner, contemplating his first sword or one of his first swords should even consider a sword that is not 'live' in the hand, at least not in my opinion. Without a great deal of knowledge, and even with that knowledge, a first sword bought from photographs is an extreme risk.

I'm concerned that someone should even consider buying a first reasonable quality sword on ebay at all. It is a market place that is frought with risk at best, and with potential fraud at worst.

This may sound somewhat utopian to some, but there are better alternatives. Contact with a reputable dealer, describing exactly what one can afford and what one requires would probably be a better option. There are good dealers out there who will help if asked, and who will be honest about there wares. They have a reputation to uphold and a beginner is someone who, if well and fairly treated will return to buy other swords in the long run.

Just an opinion.....................

[raven2]

I think I have to agree with you Keith. I got my first two blades from very reputable dealers (Andy Quirt and Bob Benson). The first was from Andy at the Chicago show a few years ago. I got to see a lot blades there and was very pleased with the information and assistance I got from Andy. I got the blade from Bob online and it was exactly as described (except better in hand than the pictures). A number of emails went back and forth with my questions and his answers, all of which were exact and truthful. I am still very happy with both blades.

[Kronos]

I would tend to agree with keith as a beginner myself I would be extremely cautious about buying on ebay especially and other online sellers although from what I gather the Wakizashi in question is from a reasonably well known Japanese seller and looks to be a good price for what it is. My thoughts on what i'm currently looking for in my first purchase would either be a Wakazashi in the $1000-$1500 range or maybe a little more if it appeared to be a bargain or perhaps a Katana of no more than $6000 which one could get a nice blade with from looking around, but any more would probably be risky until you are more confident in your knowledge and less likely to poorly judge an item.

 

Wakizashi's tend to be a little undervalued in my opinion in todays market as they're a bit tarnished with the "merchant sword" stigma and everyone wants a real Samurai sword aka a katana. So I guess what I'm saying (which you should take with a pinch of salt) is that you can get a nice Waki for little money which you can learn alot more per $ spent from but it will be harder to move on if you decide to sell. With Katana they're more a safe bet and as long as you make a good choice or buy from a reputable dealer they'll retain their value and you should be able to sell it at cost should the need arise or you decide to "upgrade".

 

The most important thing imho is to just make sure you know exactly what you want, read all the books possible and see as many swords in person and generally be very picky when browsing until you find something 1) you're happy with, like and will continue to appreciate. 2) You know enough about what it is e.g. Age, not gimei if signed, good polish, no flaws, if ubu, school and Overall quality and balance of the Sugata etc so you won't be surprised when you get it home and do further research or post pictures here to find it's not what you thought. 3) You know enough about the market values so you know what it "should" sell for and finally 4) Is a good price that you know what it should sell for should you wish to later so you're not going to have buyers regret with which all comes with #2 and #3.

 

Essentially it all comes down to the old Sun Tzu maxim of how well you know yourself and the enemy (the market). If you know yourself well enough to know how good a kantei for quality you can make and what the market value is of your appraisal to within your knowledge range then you'll never be disappointed with any of your purchases as you should always be able to make your money back when selling and will gain further knowledge for the future in the process. The people who I have found to end up disappointed are those that either jump in and buy the first thing they see within their price range or do not know themselves and their knowledge so end up spending $4000 on a gunto while looking for a bargain on ebay when they would of been better off going to a reputable dealer and getting what they pay for.

 

Another thing I've noted is with specialist dealers you'll usually get what you pay for which minimizes risk as the dealer has their reputation to think of but you'll be paying top price. Whereas buying from other sources there's more risk but also better possible deals to be had so it all depends upon how confident you are with your knowledge after you've read the books that have been recommended.

 

The connoisseurs book is very good and I'm currently reading it, I'd also recommend any of the books on the Compton collection, particularly 100 masterpieces as the photography is exceptional and will do alot to show you quality blades especially if you're unable to in person as much as you'd like.

[Nihonto Chicken]

You'd be money ahead to plan on traveling to one (or more) of the sword shows and just look at a bunch of swords, preferably along with some knowledgeable people to point out the features, pay the money to go to the kantei, etc. Seeing a number of pieces in hand will help you to see what you like/don't like, what problems look like, etc.

 

(Richard George)

 

<---What he said. At a regional sword show you'll be able to see a number of swords up close, from junk to juyo. It'll be worth the gas, McDonald's and Motel 6 money, even if you don't buy a sword.

[Lingonberry]

I think I may try and check out the sword show in Chicago, although I may not be able to swing it as I have a major final presentation for a class due the Wednesday after the show....

[Lingonberry]

I found this one floating around on one of the websites in the "links" sections on this forum. The seller is willing to come down on the price a bit. I like the overall shape and I like the hada and it isn't all that bad for the price in my opninion. But... before I bite I want to know what you guys think. Seller says it's either Soshu or Yamato school (I think Yamato school), nambokucho era. My main worry is that it's a latter period, low quality piece that was made to look like an older blade. I know it's really hard to tell from the pictures, but...

[paulb]

Hi Adam,

Cant tell anything meaningful from the images.

Not because I am suggesting buying any of them as a first sword but have a trawl through some top quality sites like http://www.nihonto.com or http://www.nihonto.us and look at the Juyo sections. You can see what top quality blades look like and the type of detail you can see in good quality blades in excellent polish. Seeing the features in these blades will help you see what is or isn't in blades in lesser condition.

 

I think the earlier advice which is to go to a show and actually talk to people and hold swords is still the right way to go. I know it is difficult and enthusiasm leads to impatience but it really would be better to wait until you can gain more direct exposure. Buying from images is tricky at best and if you do it for your first sword you stand a good chance of being dissapointed and turned off of what is a very absorbing subject.

[Lingonberry]

I've been doing that for nearly 10 years Paul. I have a spiral notebook full of pictures of swords and a folder on my computer that is similarly filled with pictures. My two all-time favorites are a noboshige katana that was on ikkyudo.com (was on his site sometime around 2003-2003 I think) and the "falling snow sword" on sho-shin.com. Nihonto.com has a really darn nice ichimonji tachi right now. It's the "Ima Aranami" tachi.

[Ken-Hawaii]

There are really no shortcuts to learning about what makes a quality Nihonto, Adam. But being able to see a number of different blades in one place provides a lot of visual cues that really can't be gotten from a book or photos on eBay (or anywhere else). You'll have to trust us on this, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you have that opportunity.

 

Ken

[Lingonberry]

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not looking for a first sword. I already have a rather splendid Tsutsui Kiyokane katana from 1944. I don't mean to be rude, defensive, or impertinent; I just wanted to clarify my position as I feel that I may have been misunderstood.

 

I've been to two sword shows before, but they were a few years ago. My first was in San Antonio, Tx, where I got the Kiyokane. The second was the Chicago show during my freshman year at college. When studying abroad in Osaka for two years I visited a few sword shops when I visited Tokyo. I've been reading books, looking at pictures, and occasionally pestering merchants with emails for nearly 9 years now. I was also a member of the JSSUS for a few years but I quit for some reason. I think it might have been because there were issues with the newsletters' publishing or the website going down/changing or something. I'm not saying that I'm a seasoned expert -I know I still have a lot to learn- but I don't consider myself to be a complete newby. I still consider myself a beginner but I know enough not to buy Chinese fakes on ebay, how to discern a machine made blade from a handmade one (unless it's a fake specifically meant to imitate a real one), how to spot acid etched hamon, etc...

 

What I'm really asking is: about how nice of a sword should a beginner aim for as a first (or second, in my case) item without getting in over their heads as far as maintenance/appreciation? From what I gather from the replies in this thread is that there is no real good answer to that question as it depends on a number of factors.

 

Thank you everyone for your time and input!

[paulb]

Hi Adam,

I am sorry I missunderstood your questions. I had no wish to sound patronising.

I will try again.

to be very blunt the image you showed and that I responded to had no obvious merit. there was no detail visible (at least to me) and I would question whether it would improve on polishing. I am also a little concerned about the nakakgo and wonder if the blade may have been in a fire at some point in it's history.

based on that I do not think it a good first, second or anything else sword. But please remember this is personal view based on a few images.

With regard to what should someone aim for. The answer is again bulk standard. Go for the very best you can afford. I understand and commend your concerns about someone with no experience being able to care for a valuable sword but the basic requirments of sword maintenance are the same regardless of the value of the blade. Once you have those basic skills and knowledge and you have good quality material (uchiko and choji oil) you are in good shape.

All I would recommend is please try and buy something in good condition and a good state of polish. As I repeat to the point of confirming I am a boring old *** is if you cant see any details on a blade it is not a study piece.

I agree with you about the Ichimonji although it is a little "loud" for my conservative and control freak taste. I think I would go for the Awataguchi tanto if my good fairy ever handed me the funds

[nagamaki - Franco]

What I'm really asking is: about how nice of a sword should a beginner aim for as a first (or second, in my case) item without getting in over their heads as far as maintenance/appreciation?

 

Go for the very best you can afford.

 

Ah, if only it was that easy, although I do agree ...... that's the thing about nihonto, it's the reality that in the end we often only end up with a sword that is only as good as our understanding of kantei is, aside from what we can afford. Perhaps, that is what is meant by the insight of "it's the sword that finds the owner!"

 

A collector can spend gobs of money and still end up with a sword they should not have bought, if they do not understand what they're buying. On the flip side, it also means one can end up with a much better sword than what they paid for, if their kantei serves them well. Do your homework.

 

Buying a sword that is unpolished and going through the process of polishing, papering, etc., can be a very rewarding experience. Then, again, it can end up being a disaster. To begin with it requires the ability to recognize when a sword is hiding jewels, or might be hiding coal. What's that, something about a sword with an excellent shape .....

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

[cabowen]

Buy a dealer, not a sword....

[Ken-Hawaii]

Buy a dealer, not a sword....

 

I almost agree with that, Chris, but would modify it to "buy a togishi." Unless you're in an area where there is more than one sword dealer, working with a local togi makes more sense to me. There is only one major dealer here in Hawaii, but several well-qualified togishi. I recently bought a gorgeous wakizashi from one of them that will be going to shinsa; he showed me the "before" photo, & I frankly can't see why or how he chose that particular blade for restoration. It might have been the ugliest wak I've ever seen, & that's saying something! But he saw what I couldn't, & the result is spectacular.

 

A dealer wants to sell you what he has in stock, while a togishi wants you to consider the work he has put into a restored blade.

 

Ken

[cabowen]

A dealer sells swords, a togishi polishes them. If the polisher is also selling, then I would consider him also a dealer....

[sanjuro]

Lingonberry.

Since we seem to have been led astray by the original question either intentionally or otherwise, and the current direction of the thread is more about who to trust when buying a beginners blade rather than what constitutes a good beginners blade; Then may I suggest that instead of trusting entirely in either a dealer or a togishi who is acting as a dealer, then the best course of action is to become knowledgeable enough to select your own blade from what is available. Who knows better your own preferences than you? Who better to select your sword than you? All that is required to select the perfect blade for you is some knowledge. If you are as widely read as you say and ten years in experience then you should be able to select a blade for yourself.

There is no answer to your original question as asked. The definition of a good beginners blade is different for each individual according to exactly where they are 'beginning' from.

[cabowen]

I have been asked this question too many times to remember.....

 

I have often heard the sentiment in Japan that if one can't tell what a good sword is, one had better postpone purchase until one has that skill. Pearls before swine, so to speak.... I had some beginning collectors come by once, telling me they were looking for good gendaito. I brought out several that, while not the usual brand names, were really well made blades equal to those made by those well known smiths. They turned up their noses at these swords and I heard second hand that they complained amongst each other that it was a tremendous waste of their time to come all the way out to see me only to be offered second and third rate items. They lacked the experience to judge a sword on its merits and were simply name shoppers....

 

Most people with experience and knowledge will tell you to buy the best sword you can afford, and this applies to not only beginners, but to the most advanced collectors as well. There are two important component here: recognizing quality and one's budget. It takes time and study, usually with guidance from someone more experienced, to come to an understanding of what makes for a quality sword. One doesn't come to appreciate anything of quality without significant experience. The other factor is budget. You will never (unless you are extremely lucky) buy a high quality sword on a limited budget. Sword collecting, as I have said, is not for the financially challenged. That is not elitist, it is a simple truth. If you don't have at least several thousand dollars to spend, you will not be able, 99.9% of the time, to afford a quality, collectible sword.

 

There are many levels in the Japanese sword collecting world- some are happy with machine made gunto, others with gendaito at $5000-$10,000. Others collect quality middle of the road, older blades, which may cost $10K and up , and then there are the lucky ones who have the bank account to buy only the very best, which can set one back a few $100K or more. I know of people that limit their collection to one or two of the best swords they can afford, which means instead of having 50 $2000-$3000 swords, they have one or two $75K-$100K swords. In general, I think it would be difficult to spend less than $3000-$4000 and expect to get anything of quality in decent condition.

 

A beginner, let's presuppose the budget is not an issue, is not able to judge for himself quality or value. This is where a trusted dealer comes into play. This person knows both, and with no other motivation except pure self-interest in obtaining a long term client, should be able to provide the type of guidance the buyer is unable to give himself. Most dealers can supply a variety of options for the beginner to choose from. Of course, the beginner will most likely not be able to fully appreciate the blade at the time of purchase, but it is something that can be "grown into", rather than, what usually happens with "beginner's swords"- they are "grown out of"...

 

What usually happens during the course of one's collecting is that as our knowledge builds, our tastes change. By buying above our knowledge, we can at least eliminate the disappointment in realizing that the early purchases were expensive mistakes. If one simply comes to prefer a different style of blade, it is far easier to sell a good sword than a bad sword....Someone once remarked that "beginner's swords are experienced collector's mistakes".....That is usually the case...Every time I see a blade advertised as a good "beginner's sword", I immediately cringe.....

 

So, in a nut shell, if you can't identify a good sword or a good value on your own, either take the time to obtain that skill before committing cash, or find a dealer you can trust to help guide you. Or, as many before have done, jump in, buy what attracts you, and 5-10 years down the road, kick yourself for your bad judgment and sell the early purchases off at losses as "beginner's swords".

[paulb]

Many a true word Chris.

I hate seeing the terms "beginners sword" or "study piece" on pieces for sale. they generally mean there is something wrong with them or you cant see anything.

I can confirm tastes change and it takes experience to identify good quality. I am many years in to this and as said in the recent Awataguchi article I was still considerably challenged when I first saw it. I had to really look in to the blade to start to understand it. I know that 10 years earlier I would possbily looked at it shrugged and wondered what the fuss was about.

There is no substitute for time and experience. The best way to gain that is to latch on to others who are already part way down that road. That is why shows, study groups and boards like this are so important to the continuation of the interest.