What kind of jihada?

[Viper6924]

Hi!

 

This surface grain comes from a shin-shinto tanto. How would You described it?

 

As always, all answers are highly appreciated!

 

Jan

[sanjuro]

Jan.

Just for the hell of it, first of all how would you describe it?

[Viper6924]

:D

 

Ok, you asked for it:

 

Perhaps Mokume mixed with Itame.

 

The reason I ask is because I not seen this "wild mix" in any of my other swords.

 

And then I saw a jihada called Yakumo-hada, which I think also could be a correct answer. The sword is a shin-shinto.

 

But perhaps I´m barking up the wrong tree.

 

Now let me have it...

 

/Jan

[paulb]

Jan,

describing hada is not an exact science. Even between the texts we use as startnig points they often define hada differently. Your itame/mokume view is, I think, perfectly acceptable and a reasonable one.

I have never come across "Yakumo-hada," so perhaps someone who has can enlighted us both as to what it means.

[cabowen]

Looks like o-itame to me.......

 

yakumo hada is the name given to the rather unique forging used by shinshinto smith Mito Nariaki (Rekko), who was the 9th head of the Mito clan. He didn't sign his work with a mei but with a chrysanthemum and clock.

[paulb]

thanks Chris,

I had not come across it before. How would you describe it?

[cabowen]

said to be "wavy, large grain that is visible, composed of dark, shiny steel"

[Jacques D.]

I would say it has a look of matsukawa hada.

[paulb]

thank you both

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Paulb,

 

I speak about the hada shown above, not about Yakumo hada.

[loui]

I'm with Jacques, looks like the bark of the pine tree.

 

Louis

[runagmc]

Here's a good example of matsukawa hada to compare with.

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/norishige-2/

 

The sword in question looks to have a similar pattern but I'm not sure it has that very bold look of matsukawa hada that they say comes from the mixture of two different steels. That being said this sword has pretty bold hada for shinshinto. I would probably call this itame/mokume w/ masame in yakiba. Now if I can just find some ayasugi in there... :lol:

[cabowen]

Quite different from matsukawa hada as seen in blades by Norishige....This is more an o-itame with mokume that has been packed at the edge.

 

Irregardless it is a very well made blade....

 

Matsukawa hada stands out more- it is more burly with flowing light and dark steels. See below...

[Viper6924]

First I must thank You all for an highly intresting conversation I´m soaking everything up like water.

 

Second I feel this is another shinsa-projekt.

 

I include some more pictures (it´s hard to take good pictures of the hada). One picture of the overall shape and one of the "long life" mei.

 

Any idee´of the maker?

 

P.S I really like the picture 0725. Looks like a an almost perfect set of evil looking eyes

 

Thanks again!

 

Jan

[paulb]

Jan,

I think you can see from the coments above that my original point regarding describing hada not being an exact science is confirmed. When looking at the finer points of the structure there is as with many other characterisitcs an element of subjectivity.

Whatever your hada is it looks to be awell made blade and worth some effort to try and pin it down.

Good luck

Paul

[David Flynn]

Jumyo (long life) is the smith. Looks like shinshinto/ shinto . Long list of Jumyo, began in Koto, right through to WW2.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

It is signed JUMYO 壽命

 

Quite different from matsukawa hada as seen in blades by Norishige

 

Of course yes, i just said it had a look, an air, a little resemblance with matsukawa hada.

[Viper6924]

Hi Paul!

 

I agree with the "element of subjectivity". For a rookie like myself, who starts to take nihonto really serious, it´s great to hear the great minds of this board.

 

Nihonto is like any other artform. There is no 100%.

 

I also understands it´s very hard to cast good judgements based on badly taken pictures.

 

But many members on this board are highly skillful. So it´s always worth a try. And even if I get 5-6 dif suggestions for a maker, it´s somewhere for me to start digging deeper.

 

And if anyone heard of a future shinsa in the north of Europe, give me a shout :D

 

All the best!

 

Jan

[Viper6924]

Thanks Jacques and David.

 

I thought "JUMYO" only was a mei the smith wrote on blades that were being given away as gifts to persons or temples.

 

So this is acctually the name.

 

Mmm, intresting.

 

Thanks again, guys!

 

Jan

[cabowen]

Thanks Jacques and David.

 

I thought "JUMYO" only was a mei the smith wrote on blades that were being given away as gifts to persons or temples.

 

So this is acctually the name.

 

Mmm, intresting.

 

Thanks again, guys!

 

Jan

 

It is an actual mei with no connection to gifts.....As has been said, there is a long line of smiths using this mei in Mino which continued right up into the early 20th century....

[Viper6924]

Hi Chris!

 

So I guess finding out which Jumyo will be pretty hard.

 

Another shinsa-projekt for the future

 

Anyway, by looking at the overall blade and the hada, it must have been a fairly skilled smith.

 

Thanks again, Chris!

 

Jan

[Brian]

Jan,

I think you can see from the coments above that my original point regarding describing hada not being an exact science is confirmed. When looking at the finer points of the structure there is as with many other characterisitcs an element of subjectivity.

Whatever your hada is it looks to be awell made blade and worth some effort to try and pin it down.

Good luck

Paul

Yep..I think Paul has the crux of the matter. There are no hard and fast rules, and swords seldom look like those picture perfect illustrations in the books.

One man's itame is another man's mokume/itame mix etc.

It is sometimes more of a gut feel than an exact science.I definitely see some mokume, but there is really no such thing as pure mokume..so I would go with o-itame/mokume. But the matsukawa hint is there. It isn't..but has some of that feel to it too.

 

Brina

[Viper6924]

So we can conclude this blade has a little bit of everything.

 

Thats what I call an active hada

 

Thanks Brian!

 

 

Jan

[loui]

Just looked like the big old pine tree at my camp in northern quebec:)

[cabowen]

It should be possible to narrow it down a bit by drawing some inferences as to the period.

 

It may also be the case that the smith was modeling this blade on the work of Norishige...I have seen many Jumyo signed blades and don't recall seeing one with this type of hada before...

 

As I said, it is a well made blade and clearly the smith was skilled...

[Viper6924]

Louis, You must have beautiful forrests up in Quebec

 

Chris, Yeah, when I saw this tanto for the first time I was really taken by the hada. Even I could place it in late shinto to shin-shinto period. So I started to look around for unusual hadas. I found the Rekko hada in a book. Couldn´t really find anything that made a better match. Now when I see this matsukawa hada, I think it´s a bit closer. But not 100%.

The koshirae is really nice. So someone have put some money into it. I only wish the mei could help a little more.

 

/Jan

[cabowen]

I am not an expert on the Jumyo line-one is about the same as another to me.... perhaps yet another puzzle for a shinsa team.....

[loui]

Very beautiful up there. I am always on the look out for matsutake mushrooms, i know they are there, just have to find the right spot at the right time!

[runagmc]

Jan, I happened to run across this on aio-art that says jumyo has a 'lucky meaning'. mabey this is were you saw it too. Just thought I'd point it out.

 

http://aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/11230.html

[Ted Tenold]

Interesting blade indeed. Jumyo works do seem to run a wide gammut, but on average tend to look stereotypical Mino. I had one paper a couple years ago that was an early Jumyo (Muromachi period) and at first glance looked very yamashiro and even had elements of Ayasugi with utsuri. Very unusual and kind of majiwari, but in line with works from that period when I further researched it.

 

As far as the definitions and terminologies of hada, many special terms are generally associated with groups or smiths that most used them. Additionally, there's elements such uniformity, jinie, chikei, etc., that support their appearance in ways that are fairly specific.

 

Ayasugi = Gassan and Naminohira

Matsukawa = Norishige (Etchu province)

Chirimen = Aoi Groups (Bitchu province)

Konuka = Hizen Tadayoshi

Uzumaki = Naotane

Nenren = Sa school

 

As for the subject sword, I would not call it Matsukawa, but mokume with itame. The oshigata provided illustrates what classic matsukawa hada should resemble.

 

Just my two cents.