cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Due to the seemingly never ending debate surrounding the merits/demerits of self-trained polishers and polishing, I am proposing the following: We will organize an exhibit of amateur polisher's work along side of examples from Japan for a learning exhibit focusing on what constitutes a good polish. I can have Miyano Teiji sensei, the head shinsa'in of the NTHK examine each blade and offer his comments and critique. Here is a chance to put your talents on display. if any non-traditionally trained polishers would like to submit their work for critical review at the upcoming Minneapolis shinsa, contact me privately. Also, blades can be submitted anonymously through third parties. Owners of blades polished by self taught polishers are also welcome to submit blades if they are genuinely interested in learning how to judge the quality of a polish. Again, names of the polishers need not be given. Names will not be discussed unless permission is given; the purpose is not to embarrass anyone but to simply answer the question: how does the work of self trained polishers compare to Japanese standards?
Jean Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 In Japan, there are I imagine all levels of skill among togishi (from national treasure to medium) What will be interesting is to see among 20 blades taken at random polished by European amateurs and Japanese trained togishi, the eye of a Japanese mukansa. And of course not to have only top Japanese polished blades, but all grade of Japanese polishing. I know someone who brought a sword polished by an amateur to Japan to NTHK shinsa (Nobutaka), asking the juge what he thought of the polish, he rated it chu jo.
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Posted August 21, 2011 Sure, there are those that are more skilled than others. I am not planning to put self trained blades up against Mukansa level polishers. I have access to a broad range of Japanese polishes which represents, on average, what one would expect to get from a professionally trained polisher. There is a basic level of competence that all polishers need to have and exhibit in their work. This is what will be looked at.
drbvac Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 For my enlightenment is a Japanese trained toshigi one who has spent the full 5 or more years living in Japan as an apprentice or someone who has gone to Japan several times and had some training from a known polisher. If one was living in the US and recieved training from a well known Japanese polisher would that count. IS an amateur one who doesn't make a living as a polisher I am trying to determine how or what training determines amateur VS trained
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Posted August 21, 2011 A professionally trained polisher is one who has completed a traditional apprenticeship under a similarly trained professional polisher. The period of apprenticeship various from school/teacher, but is generally at least 5 years of daily training under the teacher's guidance. Spending a few weeks or even months here and there in Japan or elsewhere working with a traditionally trained togi-shi is not a traditional apprenticeship or complete and proper training. Perhaps the correct term for someone without the proper training is "self-taught" versus "traditionally trained". Plenty of these people make money "polishing" so in that narrow sense they are "professional".
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Posted August 21, 2011 It will be fantastic Chris Well it will certainly provide an opportunity for those who claim to be "polishers" to prove it and put an end to the debate about their skills....I have made this same offer in the past and not one single "polisher" had the cojones to ante up.....We will see what happens this time....Don't hold your breath.....
Soshin Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 A very interesting idea Chris too bad I will be unable to attend Minneapolis show. I am interested in the results of the exhibit so posting something on the NMB would be great. Yours truly, David Stiles
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Posted August 21, 2011 If anyone submits an example of their work, I would certainly be happy to report the comments made here, names withheld of course unless otherwise requested....
Bruno Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Very but very good idea Chris!! I hope it will be a complete success with many different quality blades and different level of polishers.
David Flynn Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 For some reason This sounds condescending. No1 not everyone involved in Nihonto are on this forum. This really appears to be aimed at one person only and thinly veiled at that.
hybridfiat Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 I dont think that is justified David. The idea of having a form of comparison is an excellent idea and will be of inestimatable use to those who are able to be there. If I may make a suggestion, could someone be tasked with taking high quality pics of the swords for the benefit of those of us who cannot be there. Please
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Posted August 21, 2011 For some reason This sounds condescending. No1 not everyone involved in Nihonto are on this forum. This really appears to be aimed at one person only and thinly veiled at that. No, it is not justified. Clearly by advertising this as open to all polishers, it is not aimed at one individual, but there is no doubt that the thread in which he participated was the genesis of the idea. I have submitted an ad which details the event and the polishing exhibit to the Japanese Sword Society of the US, which will publish it in their next Newletter. In addition, this aspect of the event will be advertised in other venues as well, due to the fact that you note, "not everyone involved with nihonto are on this forum".
watsonmil Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Dear Chris, I applaud your kindness in inviting non-Japanese polishers to have their work scrutinized by the Sword Community at the up-coming Minneapolis Show. The problem arises ( known to both of us ) that few if any swords will be entered as the " amateur togoshi " living in Canada and the USA probably number less than 5 or 6 individuals, ... and given the long and expensive distances inherient for most of these individuals ( as well as most have a primary job other than polishing to contend with ) there will be FEW if ANY swords entered. Never-the-less I congratulate you on your efforts to better educate the masses. ... Ron Watson
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Posted August 21, 2011 Actually Ron there are more like 12-18 at least in the US and Canada, but you are correct in that few will travel. Hopefully owners of blades that have been polished by these people will indeed come to the show and display their blades. Some may even be submitted to the shinsa. Time will tell.
loui Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 No, it is not justified. Clearly by advertising this as open to all polishers, it is not aimed at one individual, but there is no doubt that the thread in which he participated was the genesis of the idea. I have submitted an ad which details the event and the polishing exhibit to the Japanese Sword Society of the US, which will publish it in their next Newletter. In addition, this aspect of the event will be advertised in other venues as well, due to the fact that you note, "not everyone involved with nihonto are on this forum". Very interesting, I just saw this thread now as I have been enjoying a nice family day here. I already said I wouldn't attend your event, I will however seek an avenue to submit my work to the next NBSK polishing competition, don't take this as an insult but I'd rather send a blade of my choosing that I have deemed appropriate for judging at a professional competition than just any blade I have polished, much the way it is done in a proper professional and recognized competition. ie. not just any sword that a polisher has polished is dragged in to a hall and scrutinized by a bunch of people, he has the choice as to what he submits and where he submits. If the NTHK-NPO actually put a true polishing competition together to be judged by professional polishers for its next North American show I would consider it though, a competition yes, a slammed together exhibit with a bunch of poorly polished blades on one side and some top of the line blades on the other side seems more of a witch hunt than an information session, based on your obvious dislike of "amateur" polishers and business of arranging polishing in Japan. Honestly this whole thing seems a little unprofessional to me and could probably have been handled in a more mature manner - this was a "calling out", pretty funny and old school, kudos. Good luck with your show!
cabowen Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Posted August 22, 2011 competition yes, a slammed together exhibit with a bunch of poorly polished blades on one side and some top of the line blades on the other side seems more of a witch hunt than an information session, based on your obvious dislike of "amateur" polishers and business of arranging polishing in Japan. Honestly this whole thing seems a little unprofessional to me and could probably have been handled in a more mature manner - this was a "calling out", pretty funny and old school, kudos. Good luck with your show! The event is nearly two months away so I don't understand the "slammed together" characterization. There is plenty of time to make all the arrangements and schedule it into the show...an unwarranted characterization. Assuming that the blades will be a "bunch of poorly polished blades on one side" strikes me as a very odd comment on your fellow self trained polishers and yet another unwarranted criticism. I also fail to see what is "unprofessional" about it. As I said, everything will be anonymous, no one will be singled out and ridiculed. This is meant to be a constructive, educational exercise which I think, judging by the dozen or so positive comments I have received already, is warmly welcomed. It is a learning opportunity for all involved and an opportunity for those such as yourself to prove the naysayers wrong. I would think someone in your position would welcome the opportunity to receive some constructive criticism and see where your skills rank compared to the Japanese. Unfortunate that you seem to lack the wherewithal to do so. Suit yourself, but it hardly helps your case to hide behind a load of unsubstantiated, false, self-serving characterizations- it looks, to use your phrase, unprofessional.... But, as I have welcomed those to put out blades polished by self taught polishers as well, there may well be examples of your work available for viewing, we may still have a chance to make a comparison. As for your comments: "I'd rather send a blade of my choosing that I have deemed appropriate for judging at a professional competition than just any blade I have polished, much the way it is done in a proper professional and recognized competition. ie. not just any sword that a polisher has polished is dragged in to a hall and scrutinized by a bunch of people, he has the choice as to what he submits and where he submits." It seems you have one standard of work when you know it will be critiqued by professionals and another for your customers.... I had, in the past, someone who asked me to ask my togi-shi if he had different grades of polish available, i.e., a low grade, medium grade, and juyo grade. I was over at his home later that week and asked him if indeed he offered different grades of polish. He looked me in the eye and said, "I offer one grade of polish on all the swords I work on- my best." That is what I would expect from a professional. I do not want this thread locked down due to petty bickering so please have the courtesy to refrain from making further unsolicited criticisms. If you do not wish to participate, that is your choice- I know the opportunity was offered and will not lose any sleep over it....
sanjuro Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 Despite the convictions of some, perhaps this is not about 'calling out' one individual, but more about establishing the difference in standard and quality. It would seem like great lengths to go to on Chris's part to prove a point to one person, or indeed to simply win an argument for the sake of it. The logistics alone are time consuming and not without expense. It also seems that the polishers who do enter (if they enter), will have the freedom to submit a blade of their choosing, and thus have only their best work scrutinised. Surely it would be difficult indeed to make a fairer offer or suggestion. I doubt there will be any objection coming from a traditionally trained togishi to this proposal. Until some definitive action is taken, The debate rages and will stand with no acceptable conclusion until some sort of comparison is made between 'Self taught' and 'Traditionally trained' togishi.
cabowen Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Posted August 22, 2011 Despite the convictions of some, perhaps this is not about 'calling out' one individual, but more about establishing the difference in standard and quality. It would seem like great lengths to go to on Chris's part to prove a point to one person, or indeed to simply win an argument for the sake of it. The logistics alone are time consuming and not without expense. It also seems that the polishers who do enter (if they enter), will have the freedom to submit a blade of their choosing, and thus have only their best work scrutinised. Surely it would be difficult indeed to make a fairer offer or suggestion. I doubt there will be any objection coming from a traditionally trained togishi to this proposal.Until some definitive action is taken, The debate rages and will stand with no acceptable conclusion until some sort of comparison is made between 'Self taught' and 'Traditionally trained' togishi. Well said.....And yes, a comparison, in the light of day, by objective third party experts, is way over due.
Guido Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 I had, in the past, someone who asked me to ask my togi-shi if he had different grades of polish available, i.e., a low grade, medium grade, and juyo grade. I was over at his home later that week and asked him if indeed he offered different grades of polish. He looked me in the eye and said, "I offer one grade of polish on all the swords I work on- my best." That is what I would expect from a professional.That's exactly my experience with the polishers I know. Or, as my father always said: "Once you've made up your mind that a job is worth being done, it's worth being done properly and with diligence to the best of your abilities."
Guido Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 But, as I have welcomed those to put out blades polished by self taught polishers as well, there may well be examples of your work available for viewing, we may still have a chance to make a comparison.In all fairness, it wasn't Louis who advertised his polishing in the first place; but it's indeed a good opportunity for those who touted his horn to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.
cabowen Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Posted August 22, 2011 In all fairness, it wasn't Louis who advertised his polishing in the first place; but it's indeed a good opportunity for those who touted his horn to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. Exactly my thoughts... There are two sides to the equation: hopefully by rounding up a large and varied sample of self taught and traditionally trained polisher's work, we will be able to determine how the work compares for the benefit of both the polishers and the clients.
loui Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 It's quite simple, I don't have a sword to submit to this less than fair impromtu judgement, I do have many blades of my own and could find one to polish but that would be done without having a shirasaya and habaki made (not enough time for the sayashi and international shipping), then it has to go out to your event and then back for shirsaya and habaki which is not the desirable order as I hope you understand. My other issue is time at this point, for some seems like a lot of time right, well not in my life right now as the timing is bad because of other commitments, usually I have tons of time but not at this juncture for the fall. Look at it any way and surely it will be seen here as some admission of failure to provide. I expect that most polishers would say they would have no problem displaying their work, especially seasoned polishers, but I suspect there are some they would rather have displayed than others and to show their work, without consulting would be less than professional - a professional courtesy if you will. The problem you run in to is what potentially you will be displaying and from which polisher. was the sword actually polished by that person was it touched by another polisher after the original polisher. was it touched by the owner after a polish what was the condition of the sword prior to the polish, was it a basket case? was it damaged beyond all practical repair? Some polishers offer one level of service and others offer varying levels of polish - what level is it? Did someone simply lie, mislead, or simply forget who the real polisher was? A bad foundation polish may be judged but the sword had a bad foundation polish to begin with and it best thought by the polisher to save metal and just leave the bad foundation, something that would surely be criticized without knowing the history. The above mentioned are some examples of why I say your idea is unprofessional, your reasons could be genuine but the method has no controls, and a test with no controls is simply a not a true test.. just because you say it has controls does not really make it so. I'll also add that it is very possible that a blade could show up that I polished that I would be happy to display, or a blade could show up that I polished that I would never want displayed, and that could affect my business, I quite simply have polished many basket cases, swords written off by fully trained polishers, swords damaged beyond any real state of repair, blades of very poor quality that were polished for people on a very low budget - all quite simply to get an old sword polished up to be admired for what little beauty it has left. Definitely a blade that a seasoned professional polisher would not polish as in doing so might tarnish his reputation if displayed and compared to others in public - but something I would have polished so as to bring a sword back to life after no other polisher would touch it. I take on several basket cases a year and polish at a loss, yes at a loss, I buy some very poor quality blades on ebay and polish them and sell them at a loss, yes a loss by the time you add the cost of the blade, the cost of shirasaya, shipping etc, the polish at that point is free. Those are issues with your display, and like I said, put together a polishing competition in the future to be judged by professional polishers, and at this point I would submit a work for sure (like I'd have a choice not to:)...), something of my choosing and something I have time to restore properly. To do otherwise is less than professional, that is my opinion. Edit, How about this, put together a real competition to be judged by Japanese Trained polishers and I will submit, you have my word, good enough? Or give me more time next time around and I will send something to your show, you have my word on that as well, how does that sound? A sword of my choice of course - the proper way. And I had never heard of any offers that you had made in the past, just to be clear. Is that acceptable?
loui Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 To respond to stephens suggestion "Louie i think thats a great idea, why not bring a blade to show? i know id really like to see you there maybe Ron and Dr B as well, Known Chris and Louis for years both fine people nothing like a nice sit down face to face to clear the air. What say ye?" LOL, bwahahahahahahahhahaa man you should see what my life is like right now! I am sending emails out this week to my fishing buddies to arrange our february snowmobile/ice fishing trip = and I am late in doing so! My summer trip emails go out in september! I wish I had the luxury of just packing up and heading to a show, it has been years, actually as soon as my kids came along my show attending all but stopped, but being 6 and 8 yrs now I suspect I'll be able to attend in another 5-6 years if I am lucky! I am mr. mom here you guys should know:) While I am very busy and might sound like I am complaining I am loving the time I am getting with my boys right now and have to take advantage of it, hence my limited time this fall, we are ramping up for several events that we have planned and we will have a great time, bailing out on them so i can polish and go to a show wouldn't be an option - not fair to the wee ones. Man to be able to pack up on short notice and head to a show - can't imagine what that would be like. It will happen one day and I'd be happy to sit down and have a cold pint with all of you. Retired guys.....just pack up and travel, whip up a sword for display, go to another country.....lol, guys I simply don't have that luxury right now. Louis
Stephen Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 Louie, id be honored to show one of you best polished blades, up for it? You know you can trust me, heck Carry Condel sent swords to me to show in Chicago way back when....lets put up some of your work or let it go.
Brian Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 Ok..wind it up folks. Locking this one up soon. I will admit that I don't like any of this. I have objections to both sides here, and I would be surprised if anyone submitted blades at this point. While I believe and promote the "only Japanese-qualified" polishers, I have seen numerous swords that were considered write-offs, not worthy of a polish and would be rejected by proper polishers, that were at least improved vastly by good non-traditionally trained polishers. Not advocating this, but it's a fact of life. This is far too complex an issue to debate or resolve online. And if you think you can..then perhaps you should be out there rather brokering peace in the Middle East. Make up your own mind and know who you are sending your work to. Anyways, the rest can be done via pm or in person. Brian
loui Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 Stephen, not so simple! I don't have a polished blade here! everything is back to my customers or sold, I appreciate that though and might take you up on that if Chris holds a proper competition - that would be great! Louis
cabowen Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Posted August 22, 2011 The problem you run in to is what potentially you will be displaying and from which polisher. was the sword actually polished by that person was it touched by another polisher after the original polisher. was it touched by the owner after a polish what was the condition of the sword prior to the polish, was it a basket case? was it damaged beyond all practical repair? Some polishers offer one level of service and others offer varying levels of polish - what level is it? Did someone simply lie, mislead, or simply forget who the real polisher was? A bad foundation polish may be judged but the sword had a bad foundation polish to begin with and it best thought by the polisher to save metal and just leave the bad foundation, something that would surely be criticized without knowing the history. Reasonable concerns....I know many collectors quite well and quite a few self taught polishers. I also have a reasonable selection of blades in polish. Between myself and those I am close to, I have no doubt we can come up with a good selection of blades of which we are certain of the polishing history. Therefore there is much less uncertainty to this than you would like to believe. I think both I and others I will consult know what a basket case blade is when we see it. I am not interested in proving a point by stacking the deck. I am more interested in getting to the truth and will make sure that decent blades are used. In fact, it would do nothing to investigate the claims that self taught polishers are ruining good blades if we choose junk blades as our basis of comparison... Additionally, I think you have missed an important aspect of this: as I said, it is not about singling out people, it is about learning to differentiate between a good and bad polish; along the way we may find that self taught polishers do a reasonable job, or not.... It is not a competition, it is an exploration.....
bluboxer Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 This is kind of like a train wreck and I just can't look away.I try desperately to say something to make it stop but cannot find the words. I agree with Brian. Both of you need to let it go. Mr.Skebo, you knew this would happen one day. Mr.Bowen, what a tall horse you have.
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