Help with my Katana

[cabowen]

As Jean has noted, anyone that has seen an iris leaf knows the shape. A true shobu-zukuri blade is per Nakahara's definition. I have seen it defined this way as well in other books. While some call it shobu-zukuri when there is simply no yokote, if the shinogi does not terminate at the tip, it is not the classic shobu shape and is thus a rather loose usage of the term. Perhaps we can agree to call it a modified shobu-zukuri....

 

There is plenty of precedent to back up Nakahara's definition, never mind his background and experience. I would think, however, that there is room for both usages.....

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

Jean,

 

This Kuniyoshi is also called Sairen, he is the son of Ryosai. His usual nakago jiri is a shallow kurijiri or ha hagari kurijiri.

 

A true shobu-zukuri blade is per Nakahara's definition. I have seen it defined this way as well in other books

 

I would love to see one oshigata.

[cabowen]

I would love to see one oshigata.

 

Of what? And what does an oshigata prove?

 

Here is an example of a true shobu-zukuri shape:

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Thanks i see the shinogi stops before the tip of the kissaki

[cabowen]

Yeah, I see under magnification it stops about a mm short....I think it is close enough to give you the idea....

[lbkmd43]

De que ciudad en Espana vives? soy de Madrid pero estoy viviendo 35 anos en Nueva York, tengo espada casi igual y es nagamaki naoshi tambien koto

L.Kanarek MD

[John A Stuart]

In which city in Spain do you live? I am from Madrid but I have been living in New York for 35 years. I have an almost identical sword and it is a nagamaki naoshi also koto period. L.Kanarek Md

For; Gente no de habla hispana. John

[Jean]

Para los que no hablan espanol. (disculpe, falta el tilde)

[John A Stuart]

Uh huh, That's want I meant. Obviously I am not one, eh, Jean? Doctor Kanerek, can we see photos? John

[Ted Tenold]

In the face of more than one definition by more than one authority, perhaps it's better left to some modest and flexible interpretation. Here's a scan of a katana by Ono Yoshimitsu, and the comments describe it as a Shobu zukuri.

 

I'd venture the Shobu shape is defined more in the spirit of context rather than any precise element of it. Nihonto at large have many descriptions in gray areas.

[Brian]

Once again, we in the West seem obsessed with fitting things into neat little boxes, while our Japanese collector counterparts carry on regardless without worrying too much about absolutes and firm rules.

I think we can clearly see the difference without having to measure whether the shinogi stops .78 of a mm from the tip, vs exactly at the tip.

Classifications, names, terminology..all there to assist us. But we shouldn't get too worked up over them. I don't think the original smiths sat there with a neat little order book with check boxes next to each style and took written orders from their customers? :lol:

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Would it be better then to describe the aforementioned misnamed shobu zukuri that has a shinogi that runs off the mune well prior to the tip, more as Unokubi zukuri? and with a yokote, as Kanmuri Otoshi? Or is that just adding another more puzzling dimension to the haggling about precise terminology?

[kusunokimasahige]

So would this also be considered a unokubi zukuri wakizashi ?

 

 

Its on ebay now...

 

I am just interested in the shape, that is why i ask.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

HJ

 

Just out of interest, how does the seller describe it??

 

In answer to your question, many would refer to this as nagamaki naoshi even though it bears no evidence of being suriage.

[kusunokimasahige]

Thanx for the answer Keith !

 

The seller did not have any description other than edo period wakizashi

 

KM

[sanjuro]

Hmmm... I'd describe it as a blade with a couple of serious flaws. Theres an opening or two in the hada close to the ha.

 

I find it interesting that the seller makes little attempt to describe what is a popular blade shape, and an interesting hamon.

[acrual]

Hi all,

 

I live in Madrid nice to meet Spaniards abroad

 

About the pictures, don't exactly know what part is that from the sword Jean, could you show me a similar picture? I'll be traveling a while, but will see what I can do when I'm back,

 

Thx!

 

Regards!

[Jean]

Shobuzukuri is very well defined by the sword posted by Ted, it is close to Moroha but with one cutting edge. Nakahara sama definitions on the subject:

[Jean]

Adolfo,

 

I'd like pictures of the boshi on both sides (the point/extremity of the blade with the tempered part) and of the hamachi/munemachi (The notches at the bas of the blade which is the frontier with the tang) and equally if possible one of the Hada (texture of the blade) and one of the bottom of the tang to see if has been cut.

[sanjuro]

Jean.

As a concession to this ongoing hairsplitting excercise, consider the following.

 

Nagamaki naoshi zukuri: Definition - sword made in the shape of an altered nagamaki. What sort of a description is that? What sort of alteration? what basic style (given that nagamaki came in at least three styles)?

 

I'm not having a cheap shot at one of the new gods of nihonto (Mr Nakahara), but honestly, who (I mean the ultimate authority), decides what these definitions are?

 

Show me a statement by a practicing togishi or tosho as to what these blade shapes are called, and I will acceed to their superior knowledge and authority. One condition: They must be currently practicing the trade of either tosho or togishi and be recognised as such.

 

No offence... Just want to see an end to this picky discussion.

[paulb]

Gentlemen,

Can we not live with the point Ted made regarding a less tied down definition. I remember some years ago an older collector telling me he had fallen out with another and not spoken to him for years over the exact construction of Nioi. While I think this an altogether more worthy discussion than your shape one, I still wonder about all the good cnversations they missed in the years of silence.

Naginata Naoshi- an altered naginata, generally one which has been modified to be fitted as a wakazashi

Nagamaki naoshi as above but with the possiblity of being either a long sword or a short sword.

Why do we you need to define it more?

[Jacques D.]

Hi

 

Comparison between nagamaki and naginata

 

[sanjuro]

Jacques.

 

All due respect and truly with absolutely no offence, but I think the discussion has gone way beyond the simple differences between a naginata and a nagamaki. I doubt any of the members currently discussing this topic suffers any confusion between the two forms.

[Jacques D.]

I doubt any of the members currently discussing this topic suffers any confusion between the two forms.

 

Really ?

[sanjuro]

Jacques.

 

Well, yes. I was referring more to the differences between the two weapons rather than the subtle differences between the blade forms incorporated by the various naoshi variants. Your point is well taken however. Your post is rather more subtle than I first thought. :D

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi

 

Comparison between nagamaki and naginata

 

 

I'd subscribe Ted's words of caution about grey areas :

 

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I've already seen that blade the nakago is not original it has been reinforced with two riveted plates.

[Jamie]

A while back there was a NBTHK papered Ubu Shobu zukuri posted. I'd be interested to see that one again and see where the ridgeline stops.

Anyone remeber the thread title?

Mr Bowen I think translated part of the papers.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi,

 

I've already seen that blade the nakago is not original it has been reinforced with two riveted plates.

 

So you know how old it is, where it's treasured and why. A reversed-naoshi.

That's the point. It is labeled as Nagamaki (guess you can read it in the description) because of the nakago, not because of the blade shape. It was a practical weapon without doubts.

This would lead me to talk about how the differentiation of the therms begun *in my humble opinion* (following the genealogy and origins of two different weapons) and were later mixed up ending in either two therms for a single blade (Naginata, as seems from the pic you've posted)) or simply trashing the therm Nagamaki tout-court (in appraisal) but this is not the right thread.

 

According to your pic the following would be a Nagamaki. I'd consider it a Naginata.

 

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Carlo, this blade is described as a naginata