gtstcactus Posted April 17, 2011 Report Posted April 17, 2011 Hey all, I went to a militaria auction yesterday...... Not much in the way of nihonto, but I met a couple of collectors in the area and swapped contact details, which was good. I picked up a couple of items, not national treasures but I like them. The blades all sold to postal bidders unsighted for 3-4 times what I thought they were worth!!! Pic of my finds.... I can't seem to photo the tsuba side on, they are not casts! I got the orangutan tsuba (one face, the silver one has worn off) for a wakizashi I have with no tsuba or tsuka. I got to go out now but will edit post later. Comments / info welcome! Quote
John A Stuart Posted April 17, 2011 Report Posted April 17, 2011 I think that the animal pictured isn't an ape Orang Utan, but, monkey saru in this case macaque which has a reddish face which the copper illustrates. John Quote
gtstcactus Posted April 17, 2011 Author Report Posted April 17, 2011 John, You are quite likely right... Being more knowledgeable than I on the subject. It was labeled as orangutan so I went with that but some sort of ape it is for sure!. It fits my tsuba-less wakizashi like a glove! Now I just need a tsuka for it, The photos of the 2nd tsuba didn't come out so good, I'll redo later. I can't quite tell what the menuki are one the handle.... It came with a home made wooden blade. At some stage I'd be keen on getting a blade for the set. Not a madly expensive blade, but something decent, and really just about anything would beat the wooden blade! All in all it was a good outting, I met a nice chap who can do tsuka-maki, and build handles from scratch which is of help to me! Quote
ububob Posted April 19, 2011 Report Posted April 19, 2011 Jason, be careful around tsuba they are known to lead one toward the dark side... Quote
Mark Green Posted April 19, 2011 Report Posted April 19, 2011 Jason, The first tsuba is a Gibbon. A common theme. Quote
watsonmil Posted April 19, 2011 Report Posted April 19, 2011 Jason, The Menuki appear to be Lobsters. ... Ron Watson Quote
gtstcactus Posted April 19, 2011 Author Report Posted April 19, 2011 Ron, now you've said that it seems so obvious! Quote
johnb Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 Are gibbons really a popular theme? I'm surprised as they are not an indigenous species. Johnb Quote
paulb Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 Portraying monkeys (not gibbons) With over long arms is a common theme in many fittings. I dont think this is meant to be a Gibbon although there is an obvious similarity. Quote
johnb Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 Yes Paul, I'm aware that monkeys are a popular theme, I was questioning the gibbon reference. Quite a different animal. Johnb Quote
Guido Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 Gibbons are indigenous to China (however, nowadays there are only to be found in South China) and were a subject of Japanese art since the Kamakura period, when Chinese monochrome paintings of the Song (960 ~ 1279) and Yuan (1279 ~ 1368) dynasties dealing with this theme became popular. Quote
paulb Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 Thank you Guido I am obviously confusing my primates! I had always assumed that the long armed apes often seen on koshirae were a caricature from a folk tale or myth rather than representative. Quote
Jean Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 You were not mistaking Paul, anyway according to what my wife says, each times I scratch my knees without bending over ... :D Quote
Mark Green Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 I suppose the tsuba artist could have been thinking of a Japanese Snow monkey, or Macaque? It is very likely that he never saw a real monkey, and was going from some other tsuba, or old art. Most tsuba artists of the day, never saw any of the creatures they were depicting in their art. Tigers, are not from Japan, but you see many of them in tsuba theme. Most have a common flaw in the placement of their teeth. This is likely because most of the artists were going from old art, or another tsuba, made by someone else whom had never seen a tiger. So, in time, that tooth placement became the norm. And many are very cartoon like. It is the same with monkeys. I have seen at least a dozen of these long arm monkey tsuba. Some with 2 monkeys, others with one. Very few look like real monkeys??? Cheers, Mark G Quote
cabowen Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 While I am unsure of the species. there are indeed wild monkeys in Japan....I had them climbing on my roof on several occasions when I lived next to a mikan orchard in Odawara, Kanagawa Prefecture... Quote
raven2 Posted April 23, 2011 Report Posted April 23, 2011 Chris, The monkeys are snow monkeys or more appropriately Japanese macaques (Macaca fuscata). They range throughout most of the main islands except for Hokkaido. Quote
Brian Posted April 24, 2011 Report Posted April 24, 2011 Another Monty Python thread. Are we discussing tsuba or monkeys here? I note that all the discussion is about the theme, and nothing about the tsuba. This to me (throwing aside diplomacy yet again) indicates the tsuba is low end and nothing to be said about it. I wouldn't have bought it. This is typical of the sub-$100 tsuba that are flooding the market and should be avoided. Am I wrong? Brian Quote
raven2 Posted April 24, 2011 Report Posted April 24, 2011 No Brian, you are not wrong. I don't like the tsuba much either. The only reason I mentioned the monkeys is because there was discussion of what type of monkey (or ape) was on the tsuba. Quote
Thierry BERNARD Posted April 24, 2011 Report Posted April 24, 2011 Gibbon paintings in China, Japan, and Korea: Historical distribution, production rate and context http://www.gibbonconservation.org//07_journal/gibbon_journal_4.pdf Quote
Henry Wilson Posted April 24, 2011 Report Posted April 24, 2011 Am I wrong? Nope Brian. I completely agree with you. There is much better stuff out there. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted April 25, 2011 Report Posted April 25, 2011 There is a similar tsuba for sale now : http://cgi.ebay.com/TSUBA-SUKASHI-inlay ... 5198d95104 KM Quote
Guido Posted April 26, 2011 Report Posted April 26, 2011 Had a bad day, Brian? Yes, I agree that both the Tsuba that started this thread, and the one in the eBay link, are not exactly top of the line (see, even I can be civil when I try really hard). However, the discussion about the portrayal of monkeys in Japanese art that ensued certainly is worthwhile, isn't it? And to make it all better for you, here's a Tsuba I posted in another thread some time ago: Tokuho, Momoyama Ko-Kinko. Quote
Brian Posted April 26, 2011 Report Posted April 26, 2011 Guido No problem with discussing portrayals in Japanese art..just when we get into pages of discussion about species and where they are found geographically.....well.... Lovely tsuba! Brian Quote
gtstcactus Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 Another Monty Python thread. Are we discussing tsuba or monkeys here? I note that all the discussion is about the theme, and nothing about the tsuba. This to me (throwing aside diplomacy yet again) indicates the tsuba is low end and nothing to be said about it. I wouldn't have bought it. This is typical of the sub-$100 tsuba that are flooding the market and should be avoided. Am I wrong? Brian Thanks Brian, I can always rely on you to make me feel good! I didn't get them for other people to like them I got them because I like them!!!!! Don't suppose anyone could hazard a guess at possible area / school of manufactuer? Quote
cabowen Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 I didn't get them for other people to like them I got them because I like them!!!!! Give yourself some time- you will come to not like them.... Quote
Brian Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Very true Chris. We've all been there. Brian Quote
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