Hizen steel and Nanbantetsu

[Jim P]

Hi all, I ran across this comment, but its the only time I have heard this ?

"Daimyo Nabeshima kept it top secret when making hizen steel.

I think for making swords especially kawagane(surface steel) was used Nanbantetsu and Japanese Tamahagane mixed." was Nanbantetsu commonly used in hizen swords ? and when this started ? thanks for the help Jim

[Lee Bray]

May I ask where you came across the comment?

 

It's a topic I've been discussing with Mr.Robertshaw of hizento.net and any additional info would be useful.

IF the information is correct, I assume the practice started with the Shodai Tadayoshi though this is purely speculation at this stage.

[paulb]

Hi Jim,

I have spent a lot of years collecting and studying Hizen blades and think I have read most of the major references (in translation) over those years. I also have never seen any reference to Hizen smiths using foreign steel. Because of its location and the amount of trading going on from Hizen I assume it was perfectly possible for Nabishima to import iron. So while feasible I havent seen it recorded anywhere. Can you confirm the source of this?

regards

paul

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Guess the source is the always friendly Dr. Coutinho in his article on JSSUS newsletter.

 

As I'm not sure he's a registered member so I take the responsibility to call him in cause *but I can be mistaken* as I'm not at home and can't check the newsletters. Barry, that edited his articles, can surely be more precise and eventually dismiss my above statement.

[Jim P]

Hi, paul,lee, the source .https://www.aoi-art.com/kantei/kantei03.html as its the first time I have heard this too,thanks Jim

[Eric H]

Hizen Dewa no Kami Yukihiro shodai, he used Namban-tetsu

 

Yukihiro was a swordsmith of Hizen province. He was the Second son of Hashimoto Yoshinobu. Yukihiro got the title of Dewa Daijo in 1648 and ranked up to Dewa (No) Kami in 1663. He went to Nagasaki to learn under Hisatsugu and Tanenaga who were well informed about western steels brought by the Dutch. Later he became a retained swordsmith of the Nabeshima family and lived in Nagase town. He passed away in 1683, aged 66.

 

Eric

[b.hennick]

I can confirm that an article in the JSSUS Newsletter by Francisco Couthino was about the use of nanban tetsu in Hizento. I can also confirm that Tsuruta San of Aoi Arts also mentioned this idea (before being picked up and expanded upon by Francisco Couthino).

[Jean]

"Daimyo Nabeshima kept it top secret when making hizen steal."

 

Jim, it is a very daring statement

[Eric H]

It is known that Yukihiro has worked with Namban-tetsu and now I have found an article that states his relation to shodai Tadayoshi.

 

Hizen Yukihiro was born in 1617 and was named Kurobei. He is

the younger brother by 11 years to Shodai Hizen Masahiro, and his grandfather

by way of adoption of his father Yoshinobu, is Shodai Hizen Tadayoshi.

His first work is known to have been made in 1639 at the age of 23. His first

title, Dewa no Daijo came at age 32 around the time when he began

experimenting with Oranda Tetsu ( = Holland steel and Dutch manufacturing

techniques) under the sword smiths Hisatsugu and Tanenaga in Nagasaki.

In 1663, he was granted a promotion to Dewa no Kami, and two years after

this his elder brother Masahiro passed away.

 

That leaves room for speculations.

 

Eric

[Jim P]

Hi,Jean As I explained its not my comment, that's why I thought someone more knowledge may shed light on it as I have a hizen Blade it came up, I still do not have a opinion and have not found it in the 1 or 2 books I have so thank you jim

[Jean]

Hi Jim,

 

It was just a comment about steal#steel

 

Tsuruta san sometimes uses an English idioma which is worst than mine but copying his English mistakes is a blatant copyright infrigement

[Jim P]

thanks ,jean that's the best laugh I have had in a long time :D jim

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

I have HIZENTO HIKKEI handy which does not suggest that shodai Yukihiro ever used "Orande tetsu". He certainly was in Nagasaki working with Hisatsugu and Tanenaga in 1650, and noted on some blades "Orande Kitae o-motte saku". This means he studied Dutch forging methods but not that he used Dutch steel. Further, Eguchi Shoshin suspects that this inscription was put onto his swords (I own one myself) almost as a marketing ploy to enhance his prestige.

Incidentally this reference states he received the Dewa Daijo title in 5th year of Shoho (1648) and Dewa no Kami in 3rd year of Keian (1650)

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

[Eric H]

"Orande Kitae o-motte saku". This means he studied Dutch forging methods but not that he used Dutch steel.

Motte Oranda-kitae saku is sometimes inscribed on his blades, not Oranda-tetsu...but one could also deduce that Oranda-kitae saku implies logically the use of Dutch iron, oroshigane...a marketing ploy for better selling his swords?...perhaps...but in this case why not regularly inscribed on his swords?

Regrettably I haven‘t found examples by Hisatsugu or Tanenaga to reveal an evidence.

 

The other question is: what about Dutch forging methods? What did they, the Dutch, forge, surely not swords

 

BTW Japanese sources use to write: He used Holland iron for making his swords. Sometimes we find swords as mentioned on the tang as used Holland steel.

 

Yukihiro oshigata from Fujishiro with...motte Oranda...

 

Eric

[Jim P]

Hi Clive,Eric, Thank you for your input. It seems its one of those things,on Darcy.s site he thinks Yukihiro was experimenting with it

and that is about it,( just experimenting )? (http://www.nihonto.ca/hizen-yukihiro/) thank you Jim

[Hachiman]

Just out of curiosity, do the records of the Dutch East India Company reveal where they obtained the steel they traded to Japan?

 

Swedish, German, Dutch, Indian (Wootz?)...South Asian?

[Brian]

Anyone care to send the topic link to Roger and ask him his take on this?

I will do it later if I get a chance.

 

Brian

[Lee Bray]

Already done, Brian, but he's been busy.

I see him today though, so will remind.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Jim

Whilst not wishing to belabour the point, it may well be that Yukihiro actually experimented with nambamtetsu or Dutch steel, but there is no evidence of which I am aware to say this. I believe the Dutch forging that he studied was in the manufacture of firearms rather than swords. He also seems to have been quite a traveller and experimenter, as he was known to have made swords in Hiroshima as well as Nagasaki and and to have studied the Ichimonji school in Edo with the Ishido group (as did Hizen Tadakuni), inscribing ICHI in his mei. He eventually seems to have settled in Saga.

Others that used Namabamtetsu, such as the Yasatsugu group in Echizen, readilly mentioned this in their mei didn't they. Also I think most Nambamtetsu was imported from the Indian sub-continent.

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

[Eric H]

In 2006 a very interesting study „NAMBAN TETSU PROJECT“ was published under the patronage of Mr. L. Duindam and Token Sugita.

Going back to the roots of Namban-tetsu, two swordsmith, Yukimitsu and Ono Yoshimitsu performed a Tanto and a Wakizashi using Namban-tetsu especially prepared for this project.

 

I enclose the mei‘s of the respective swords

 

YUKITMITSU TANTO

mei „Yukimitsu namban tetsu wo motte saku“

 

ONO YOSHIMITSU WAKIZASHI

mei „o motte Oranda kitae Yoshimitsu tsukuru kore“

 

why did Ono Yoshimitsu use „Oranda kitae“ instead of „namban tetsu“? ...but perhaps by the same reasoning as Hizen Yukihiro.

 

Thanks Carlo

 

Eric

[cabowen]

Ah ha, But do we know if this Ono Yoshimitsu is shoshin, or another test?????

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Seems Shoshin.

 

http://tokensugita.com/NT.htm

 

 

 

Mine is not an endorsement on the dutch origin of the nanban steel, either all or in part.

Just pointing out this interesting research.

 

IMHO, most of the nanban steel was from India and likely NOT wootz, OR if it was crucible

steel (wootz) it was used as source of extra-high carbon steel rather than for the

texture that would have been lost in the Japanese smithing process that definitively

doesn't fit wootz as far as smithing of the blade goes.

[cabowen]

Just kidding Carlo.....

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Just kidding Carlo.....

 

Got it Chris, but realized that without a link the whole matter was cryptic.

 

I guess that if anything turns out from the East indies Company's archives it would be

about trade between India and Java, but the ballast theory is a very interesting one.

 

Most of the cannons dutch and portugueses had were re-melted or repaired in Goa and

Batavia at that time, to avoid a long and dangerous trip back to Europe.

 

However, for sure trade ships had to travel back to homeland with goods...

 

EDIT : I've read years ago on a board claims that Ashigaru armor were produced in

Netherland, but never had the opportunity to verify this.

[omidaijo]

Hi All,

 

I spent 4 hours replying to this yesterday, hit 'submit' and gone..... To where I have no idea! One day I will learn to backup as I go.

And I appologize if this is posted multiple times - having a bad computer technology day.

 

Anyway, here is the 60 minute version of some random thoughts on the matter - mainly speculation as I have not analyzed a Hizen sword from the inside out, nor am I a sword smith.

 

The Hizen Kaji was setup as one of the most advanced and innovative military machines of its day by the Nabeshima, who were tasked with, amongst other things, the protection of Nagasaki port. The location of the Kaji meant only a day’s travel by canal and ship to Nagasaki. Its location also saw a vast array of Samurai traveling the Nagasaki highway to/from Kyushu during dangerous times. Not only civil strife prevailed, but there was the constant threat of a reprisal from the ill fated Korean campaign a few years earlier, and there was an innovative Daimyo controlling the area. The Hizen Kaji was strategically placed to ensure its survival as a major sword production site for centuries to come and with an innovative leader, there comes innovative techniques.

 

Clearly there was a huge requirement for modern swords of the highest caliber in Kyushu, there were the men and equipment to make them at Saga, and there were boatloads of highly sought after steel at the backdoor in Nagasaki. ..... And you "don't take coals to Glasgow" - which means if you have a supply of material on hand, why carry the stuff from far away. Namban tetsu was a highly sought after and expensive commodity, and it was the McDonalds version of steel - "takeaway", so it would have cut production times down significantly. It was right there under the immediate control of the Nabeshima who were the sponsors of the Hizen Kaji. The kaji needed steel, and the Nabeshima controlled it. (Fukuoka port was to the East in Chikuzen so steel from this port would have circumvented the Nabeshima and clearly found its way to ‘mainland’ sword smiths)

 

Hizen Hada can be incredibly tight - almost muji - and I really do wonder if a sword smith can make this kind of hada that easily using traditional methods, and how much simpler it would be with foreign steel. I am not saying all Hizento were made with foreign steel, but there can be no doubt in my mind that some were, and I would like to think it was some of those 'man-cutter' huge swords with perfect hada - the ones you could take to the frozen wastes of Korea and it not break on the hessian and leather Mongol armour in the middle of winter. An over polished Hizento can display rather coarse core steel, much like your average Koto sword - so I doubt Barbarian steel, being an expensive commodity-would have been used in the core. Could it be that the thin outer steel was indeed the rather expensive and much sought after Namban tetsu?

 

The Hizen Kaji did use foreign steel - they had a teppo factory just 25 yds down the highway from the Tadayoshi forge, and there was the cannon reverbatory factory 0.5Km back from the Nagasaki highway still in the Nagase-Machi 'area' under Hashimoto control. Interesting also how some Hizen tsuba appear very 'Namban' in nature.

 

There was integration with the Nagasaki smiths - aka Yukihiro with Nagasaki Tanenaga, 8th Gen Tadayoshi and several other smiths who reportedly 'moved away to Nagasaki'. Eguchi states in his Hizento Hikkei when discussing Oranda kitae "In this way, in the Nagasaki district sword forging techniques that were not seen in other provinces flourished, and thus, there was a high degree of support for the branch lines of Hizento". I assume by this that the 'degree of support' meant use of Namban tetsu, but his comment is intentionally vague.

 

Eguchi goes on to say "Namban Tetsu" expression is rather rare; however the inscription Oranda-kitae is fairly common. He specifically says that Hizen was in charge of Nagasaki and that "it was extremely difficult situation in which to acquire imports". I read that as the Nabeshima controlled ALL of the Namban tetsu import through Nagasaki, the only other supply to the rest of Japan being through Fukuoka.

 

So if you were Nabeshima Katsushige in 1600 and have a supply of foreign steel and a vast kaji of metal workers hungry for the stuff - what are you going to do with it? Make ladies hair-pins, or wood nails, or use it in your advanced war machine to make pretty much perfect swords and keep it secret?

 

It is recorded that Yukihiro made swords with Oranda-kitae, but a scan of Hawley shows no such signatures listed, only Motte Namban tetsu with a dozen or so other smiths working mainly in the mid 1600's. Eguchi lists Yukihiro Oranda signatures, but off the top of my head I do not recall actually seeing one in any of the Hizen books. (No doubt a keen eyed reader will point me in the right direction) So to me, that says if the Hizen Kaji were using foreign steel, it was being kept very quiet and not openly publicized by the Nabeshima Daimyo.... and who wouldn't keep the latest and hottest military innovations a secret. If you were using foreign steel, would there be a stigma attached to it? You could, as Clive has argued, say that since there weren't many signatures alluding to the use of Namban Tetsu, it didn't happen. Hard to prove either way, but I think what little barbarian steel that was acquired, was used in swords, just not publicized. Speculation.

 

Talking of Hawley (and I know his book isn’t the definitive on this subject, but it is easy to quote from), there isn’t a single Oranda mei listed, and only a few Motte Namban Testu (some by high end smiths):

NAMBAN TETSU MEI

Akitsuna 1933

Echizen Kanenori 1661

Settsu Kunishige 1661

Nagato Masayoshi 1598

Echizen Shimosa 1661

Mimasaka Takamichi 1655

Musashi Yasukuni 1700

Echizen Yasutsugu III & IV 1658+

Musashi Yasutsugu 1600 (Big name smith) and his sons to 1781

Musashi Yoshisuke 1783

Hizen Yoshitoshi (Nagasaki) 1716

 

Interestingly there are some inscriptions that refer to different Tetsu …. Anyone any thoughts on these other than places in Japan?:

Motte Mochitetsu

Motte Hyotan Tetsu

Motte Gotetsu (5 plate??)

Motte Tohama Tetsu

Motte Rikuchu Satetsu (from Rikuchu?)

Motte Takasegawa Sheitetsu

Motte Shiso-tetsu

Motte Chikudo Satetsu (Chikuzen?)

 

 

So there is very little factual evidence until we dissect a sword and have it analyzed (any volunteers?). But I think there is so much circumstantial evidence to be able to say "Yes, the Hizen Kaji must have made swords with Namban Tetsu", but to what degree is unknown.

 

Clive, have you ever thought ………that huge, man-cutting Hizen Tadayoshi masterpiece I know you have tucked away in the safe - It may well have an outer steel of Oranda-Kitae, but it could also have core steel made of Pakistani Namban -tetsu, so I will gladly take it off your hands for a pittance. :lol:

 

Kind rgds,

 

Roger

[george trotter]

Hi all,

Just on the point of the Dutch as the possible source of namban tetsu...

I rang Dr Jeremy Green, head of the Western Australian Maritime Archaeology Dept of the WA Musem and asked him about this...Jeremy excavated 4 Dutch East Indiamen wrecks on our coast (which was on the direct outward route of these Dutch ships from Cape Town to Indonesia).

Of the wrecks which date from 1629-1712, one at least , the Vergulte Draeck of 1656, had iron billets on board. There were boxes of these billets which measured approx. 2cm x 1cm x 1.5m. These iron "rods" were in boxes and were definitely cargo.

It is his opinion, that as Holland had no iron, this stuff probably came from Sweden.

Did they go to Japan?...he is uncertain. As most of Asia, with whom the Dutch traded with from Indonesia, had no interest in European goods, the Dutch had to pay for spice, porcelain, silk etc with silver...a great drain on their reserves, so they did their utmost to buy Asian goods and trade them WITHIN Asia to end up with the goods they wanted to take back to Europe by trade, rather than paying in silver. For this reason, it might not be a case of the iron billets coming directly to Japan (Nagasaki) by the Dutch, but may have come there via an Asian middleman (eg from India)...hence the exact origin of the iron has acquired names like, Dutch, Swedish, Indian...etc.

 

Jeremy said there is a 5 vols set of books, written in the 1700s by van Dale, called in English: "The History of the Dutch East India Company' which details all ports and all cargo types and routes. It is in Dutch and is in most good State and National Libraries...maybe a Dutch speaker might like to explore...?

Regards,

George.

[Eric H]

Anyway, here is the 60 minute version of some random thoughts on the matter - mainly speculation as I have not analyzed a Hizen sword from the inside out, nor am I a sword smith.

Roger, many thanks for this enlightening article

 

Eric

[paulb]

Roger,

A great article thank you. (I would have loved to see the 4 hour version!)

As always a piece like this raises a number of interesting questions which probably cant be answered but might be worth considering. I have listed some below:

 

1. My perception was that the incorporation of foreign steel by more recognised users such as Yasatsugu was that it was used because it was new, fashionable and in combination with Tamahagane created a jigane with interesting variation in hada. Effectively it was a fashion statement which differentiated his work from others.

2. I think your post offers compelling circumstantial evidence that Hizen smiths on occassion used imported iron. The question is why? was it

fashion- no because it was publicised in the way the Edo smiths did

 

Quality- I am not sure any one has suggested imported iron offerd any quality over and above locally produced stock.Has anyone seen any statement either made at the time or subsequently regarding the quality differences between home produced iron and imported stock? Again my understanding was that tamahagane was a much purer and superior product and capable of being welded more effectively. Also much of the structural activity regarding the production of nie, chickei etc was a aided by these qualities.

 

Availability- As you rightly point out there was high demand and raw material sitting there so it would make sense to use it.

 

Assuming that amongst the numerous members there were metalagists it would be interesting to hear their views on the chemical differences in the material and how they might impact the final sword.

 

Regarding the point you made about the tightness of the hada and relative coarseness of the core steel. I am not sure this can be regarded as indicative of the use of foreign steel. in the Kamakura and Nambokochu periods the Awattaguchi, Rai and Aoi schools were all producing extremely fine tight jigane from home grown material. Also coarse core steel is I think common to all periods of manufacutre, it was softer, folded less and therefore had a more open structure.

As said above I think your post offers a great deal of insight and stimulates a lot of thought. I am not sure that the questions I am asking have been or can be addressed but I think it is an interesting line of inquiry.

Best Regards

paul

[george trotter]

Quality- I am not sure any one has suggested imported iron offerd any quality over and above locally produced stock.Has anyone seen any statement either made at the time or subsequently regarding the quality differences between home produced iron and imported stock? Again my understanding was that tamahagane was a much purer and superior product and capable of being welded more effectively. Also much of the structural activity regarding the production of nie, chickei etc was a aided by these qualities.

 

 

Assuming that amongst the numerous members there were metalagists it would be interesting to hear their views on the chemical differences in the material and how they might impact the final sword.

 

paul

 

Paul san, I hope I am not stating the obvious, but I referred to Nagayama "Connisseur's" page 33 and he says that nambantetsu (also called Hyotantetsu and konohatetsu) was Dutch and Portuguese and that it "was not the equal to native Japanese steel (tamahagane) and that it was not really an appropriate material for sword production because it contained too much sulphur and phosphorus, which are believed to make blades weak and brittle."

I hope this helps...someone must have analyzed nambantetsu...?

George.

[paulb]

Hi George,

No problem in stating the obvious, I must have read that section umpteen times long since. I think that is why I have this built in negative feel about using foreign steel in this way. I still am of the belief that this was used partly to be different and as a new fashion and simply because it was available and they could use it. I have not read anywhere that it added physical value to a sword through some superior properties. hence the question. Also it was only used in combination with Tamahagane not as a complete replacement. Is that others opinion as well?

Best Regards

Paul