Shinsakuto ...... are they Nihonto?

[sanjuro]

Lee.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Now, all we need is a nice friendly bar and we can all drink to the fact that Shinsakuto are without a doubt, Nihonto. :D

 

Actually, Carlo Tacchini suggested this a few posts back. We should have listened to him! :lol:

[Lee Bray]

If Aoi Art sell swords made in Hong Kong in 1943 with Hozon papers, then that's good enough for me.

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/08439.html

Note the date should read 1943, not 1843.

If I had the cash, I'd bring this one home purely for the fact it's made in Hong Kong.

 

I suppose this would fall under Gendai, though.

Is Gendai a legitimate category or is it Shinto - ShinShinto - Shinshakuto?

[sanjuro]

Lee

 

I'm familiar with the swords you are referring to. I have a feeling they would fall under the Showa to category, although I'm not completely sure.

 

Chris Bowen would know.

[David Flynn]

Looking at this sword, if it didn't state made in Hong Kong, how would you know? If it recieved Hozon paper, then the NBTHK considers this to be Gendaito.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

If Aoi Art sell swords made in Hong Kong in 1943 with Hozon papers, then that's good enough for me.

 

If I was searching for troubles I would rise the question "Does Hozon papers consider the actual political situation of the site of production at the time the sword was made?".

Honkong in 1943 was part of the Japanese Empire.

[Lee Bray]

I'm sure the sword I linked to would be classed as Gendaito as opposed to Showato.

What my question is, is are Gendaito and Showato classed as period categories such as Koto and Shinto?

In other words, is it Koto - Shinto - Shinshinto - Showato - Gendaito - Shinsakuto

or Koto - Shinto - Shinshinto - Shinsakuto, as I believe it is?

 

My understanding was Gendaito and Showato as categories were only brought about to easily label blades made during the war periods, Gendaito being traditionally made and Showato being non traditionally made.

[Lee Bray]

Honkong in 1943 was part of the Japanese Empire.

 

Only grudgingly.

Now I'm here and trying to take it back from the Chinese.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Only grudgingly.

Now I'm here and trying to take it back from the Chinese.

 

Last englishman patrolling the old colony eh ?

[sanjuro]

Just to clarify a point here. Traditionally made?....... does this mean also of traditional materials, ie. tamahagane? Or, does it mean only that it was hand made and differentially hardened in the traditional manner? The reason I ask this is not only to differentiate between Gendaito and Showato, but also to clarify the standing of Shinsaku To, being made of modern steels possibly not sourced in Japan. The Koa IIshin swords particularly raise this query, being made of steel from the Manchurian railway, which was essentially namban steel as I understand it.

[Lee Bray]

'My' understanding of traditional is "hand made and differentially hardened in the traditional manner".

With Japanese smiths using their own home made steels and the high likelihood that some Hizen smiths occasionally used namban tetsu, using tamahagane is not a strict requirement for traditional nihonto.

 

This is only the way I see it.

I dare say it could be said that the swords made from any other steel other than the official tatara tamahagane are non traditional.

One of Nihonto grey areas or perhaps just poor understanding on my part.

[reinhard]

' I dare say it could be said that the swords made from any other steel other than the official tatara tamahagane are non traditional.

One of Nihonto grey areas or perhaps just poor understanding on my part.

 

Lee,

 

There was no "official tatara tamahagane" used, when Ko-Hoki YASUTSUNA made his swords, but they are genuine NipponTo beyond all doubt. There was no "official tatara tamahagane" used, when Echizen YASUTSUGU smiths experimented with namban tetsu, but their swords are genuine NipponTo without question. There was no "offficial tatara tamahagane" used, when Suishinshi MASAHIDE made a sword out of links from the anchor-chain of a Russian ship, but he created a real NipponTo. There is "official tatara tamahagane" used, when Gassan SADATOSHI forges a blade by mixing tamahagane with old iron from Meiji-time teapots and the like.

Their swords are all genuine NipponTo, because they were/are made by THE traditional technique (see: "the craft of the Japanese sword").

Raw material is judged by its quality only, not by its origin, and the place of manufacture is of no importance. The sword made by Gassan SADAICHI and his students in Boston's museum of fine arts in 1982 is a NipponTo at its best, no matter where it was made.

On the other hand: Just taking any kind of steel and shaping it into a "traditional Japanese-looking blade" the easy way is not NipponTo. No matter if it was done by a Japanese person or not and no matter if it was done within the actual boundaries of Japan or not. The result was, is and will be just a poor look-a-like. Collectibles for lovers of militaria without any deeper sense for the unique quality of real NipponTo.

 

ShinSakuTo made by licensed smiths therefore ARE real NipponTo. Much more than any Koa Isshin "katana", made and used for decapitating prisoners of war or any other oil-quenched hook made in Japan dating from the 1940ies.

 

reinhard

[Lee Bray]

Thanks for the clarification, Reinhard.

Poor wording on my part.

Your examples of smiths using various steels to make Nihonto illustrates my first point well.

[Mark Green]

Great post Reinhard.

 

I think that just about covers it. eh gang?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Another thing to be highlighted about the "steel from official Tatara" is that such a tatara

has been restored only in relatively recent times. Its 30th anniversary wasn't too many years ago even if I can't remember just now the exact date (back to work, damn). Shinsakuto made before are still legit.

[Guido]

I think I already posted the following excerpts from the minutes of a NBTHK management staff panel discussion, held in January 1992, some years ago (don't remember where, maybe SFI?), but it's still an interesting read, so FWIW ....

Akira Yagi (Director): I have a serious question about present-day sword making. I've heard that a considerable amount of electronically forged iron material has been in use ...

 

Tomonari Suzuki (Executive Director): It's partly true. When there was only an extremely limited amount of Tamahagane available for sword makers, they had to find something to replace the most desirable material, and use of the machine-made material came as a result of having nothing else. At one point in time, it certainly became even trendy among them to use it. However, after the NBTHK started the Tatara operation to provide Tamahagane, most of the swords that we see submitted to the competition are products of Tamahagane.

 

Yagi: Is that really true?

 

Suzuki: In other words, there may be some among contemporary sword makers who are producing swords from the undesirable material, but as far as the contestants in the Shinsaku Meitō-ten are concerned, they are the ones who have access to Tamahagane.

 

Terumasa Kobayashi (Manager, Data Base): We are fully aware of the problem, and that is why we ask the applicants to submit information as to the material used. We consider it as a kind of preliminary screening. It's quite amusing to find, once every five years or so, an easy-going applicant who specifies "electronically forged iron". (laughter)

 

***

 

Suzuki: As you know, the Tatara Forge was reconstructed in 1977 as fruition of the NBTHK's long standing yearning. We started the operation on the basis of awareness that truly "Japanese" iron was indispensable to continue production of the Japanese sword, which had gained recognition as a form of one of the most valuable Japanese traditional arts and crafts. I used the term "craft" right now, but I also feel that the present day notion of the Japanese sword as an object of art is also very correct. However, we need to recognize the fact that the Japanese sword was once a weapon. It was developed as a form of weapon, but the pursuit of best functional quality in the form of the Japanese sword as a weapon culminated in its beauty deriving from its functional perfection. Also, spiritual aestheticism deriving from the unique sensitivity of the Japanese people was combined with the pursuit of functional perfection and resulted in the birth of the so-called art sword both in concept and in form.

 

When we wish to continue to produce this beautiful Japanese sword, even though its function as weapon has long been terminated, we need to have the right kind of material in order to meet its original qualification as weapon. "Watetsu", or Japan-made iron, was absolutely necessary for a blade to have the quality to be a Japanese sword. This is how we came to assume the necessity of the Tatara's reconstruction.

 

In retrospect, the product didn't sell well at all at the outset, even though the expenditure we had suffered was huge. We didn't get to learn the reason for the unpopularity of Tamahagane until much later. It was as simple as that few knew how to utilize it. Of course, some of the top-ranking sword smiths knew it theoretically, but they had not acquired the technology to make proper use of the material. For example, Watetsu is extremely difficult to process. One reason is its easily dissolving quality. The initial heating in the Orikaeshi-Tanren, i. e. hammering process of repeated folding, has to be done extremely carefully, that is slowly at a low temperature until the chunk of material gets heated red, lest it would suddenly dissolve into pieces. The hammering has to start with less impact, and when the material is well warmed up, the major part of the forging process can take place. It took them all a long time to get to learn how to actually handle it properly.

 

We have come into the 9'th year of this operation. In 1983, we started the sword-making workshop for the purpose of improving sword making technology and skill of those engaged in it. We were also very hopeful that this would give the beginners opportunities to acquire the know-how for treating Tamahagane properly and efficiently. It turned out just right, and most sword makers now know how to make use of this special material and have developed total dependence on our Tatara production. I think this is the current status of this project.

 

For the fiscal year of 1991, we dared to expect a record high in terms of the revenue the Tatara operation can bring to our organization. Actually, the turnout was an income of somewhat less than 37,000,000 Yen. Since the Tatara operation has an important business benefit for our organization, we have to keep our minds business oriented. In other words, we need to continue to be a reliable source of this material for the sword makers who are increasingly dependent on our supply of Tamahagane. There were times when the remaining inventory was worth tens of million of Yen, and my stomach ached as the fiscal yearend approached. At present, there is almost no inventory left. Every May, we send out a notice of distribution to sword makers, and our supply capacity comes down to zero in about ten days time. I hope this has answered Mr. Yagi's concern about the machine-made material raised a while ago. I am pleased to be able to emphasize that demand for Tamahagane is increasingly higher.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

1977, I'm getting old.

 

Thanks Guido.

[Eric H]

There was no "official tatara tamahagane" used, when Ko-Hoki YASUTSUNA made his swords, but they are genuine NipponTo beyond all doubt.

The oldest smelting furnace discovered in Japan dates from the middle of the sixth century. Tamahagane is the impure base material for the Japanese sword and is produced from iron sand using a smelter called Tatara. It must be said that the Japanese sword cannot be produced without Tatara iron, i.e. Watetsu. (see Guido's article)

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

About Tatara...

 

http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/tatara/nnp01.htm

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Eric, I think the stress of this matter was about "official" rather than "Tatara".

Smiths made their own raw material for a long time and still do, but at one time after the war rised the concern about the use of industrially produced steel (from Guido's article):

 

"Mr. Yagi's concern about the machine-made material raised a while ago. I am pleased to be able to emphasize that demand for Tamahagane is increasingly higher."

 

Hence the need for re-opening of the Tatara.

 

A way to control the origin of the material used and to give a common starting point to all the contesters (even if we know this is not the case considering the best ones have the first-choice right).

 

But I may be wrong.

[Eric H]

No rule without exception Wakizashi by Ono Yoshimitsu using "oranda tetsu" without watetsu.

 

Article NAMBAN TETSU PROJECT : http://www.tokensugita.com/NT.htm

 

Eric

[Nobody]

There is indeed an exception.

Ref. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3479&p=45045&hilit=meteorite#p45045

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Seems pretty much as Rheinard pointed out. Skill of a patended smith overwelm material used.

[amarie]

On 6/12/2010 at 8:58 AM, Eric H said:

Preservation of an old Craft

Thank God that the late Dr. Junji Honma could convince General Mc Arthur on the artistic merits of the old Japanese sword and thus saving many hundreds of thousands of swords before destruction. Thereupon 1948 the NBTHK was founded by Dr. Honma and Dr. Sato.

 

It is also true that on the background of Japans history it has been a honest ambition to make survive the old crafts like pottery, lacquer, weaving, dying, metalwork and so on... and in particular swordsmithing and the related crafts are logically involved.

 

Shinsakuto are made by highly skilled craftsmen. These swords are made to be admired and appreciated as well as the old swords once worn by the Samurai, although the old swords are in the aura of the foretime and this makes them perhaps more attractive for a collector. Not any of them should be used except perhaps by qualified swordsmen.

 

It is pathbreaking that Tanobe san has a large collection of shinsakuto. 50 years in the future or even earlier they will be much sought-after...and for sure... sword lovers will not die out.

 

Shinsakuto are Nihonto, an art object as well as a weapon.

Yes

 

Eric

Hello Eric, nearly 14 years late to your post but could you tell me what magazine or book the two pictures came from? Thanks!

[Kiipu]

22 hours ago, amarie said:

what magazine or book the two pictures came from?

 

The Fuller & Gregory book entitled Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks, page 247 & 249.

[amarie]

Hi Kiipu, 

thank you for the answer, I happened upon the image while I was going through Fuller & Gregory's book!